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The long history of ethnic cleansing

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Get Real! » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:21 pm

CopperLine wrote:There are many and detailed examples we could look at and we might learn something from them.

The Cyprus problem is EXTRAORDINARY due to the fact that nowhere in the history of mankind will you find a similar scenario where a country's sovereignty is CONSTANTLY violated (400+ years) by a neighboring superior military power with the sole intent of manipulating the NATURAL SELECTION PROCESS of that country, by illegally propelling a miniscule and non-indigenous minority with the most illegal and diabolical of interferences ever seen and yet constantly failing.

Therefore, your idea of drawing parallels with other conflicts from around the world is a total waste of time.

One grand old man said (I paraphrase) 'It is said that history repeats itself as tragedy. They forgot to add that it repeats itself first time as tragedy, second time as farce.' If in the case of Cyprus we have already repeated the tragedies that have befallen others, by looking and learning from others we might escape the Cyprus problem repeating itself as the Cyprus farce.

Tell that grand old man that it’s not History that repeats itself but stupidity because it’s the latter that is hereditary; Turkey just doesn't know when to quit...
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Oct 03, 2007 5:35 pm

CopperLine wrote:My oh my, I really have rattled some people's cages ... and just by asking people to consider other cases and other experiences.

Those who are convinced they know my ulterior motives might want to ask this simple question : how the hell can you identify, never mind establish or know, the motives of an unknown cyber poster ? So what you do is speculate what my motives might be, then with a little bit of your hocus-pocus turn assumed motive into 'fact', and then present that to the forum as an undeniable truth. Kifeas et. al, it is not me who has a problem with the idea of 'truth' of 'fact' it is you who have a completely arbitrary notion. Thus whenever I suggest that we test what is a historical fact or a 'truth' your response is either to say (i) I'm trying to hide or distort something or (ii) that my motives are insidious or (iii) that I refuse to acknowledge your so-called 'facts'.
Whichever way, you flatly refuse to allow the claims to be tested or questioned. That is the way of the blind ignorant fundamentalist - follow Kifeas, his is the way, the truth and the light.

Kifeas et. al, as I've said before, are like dogs pissing at lamp-posts. They basically patrol what they regard as their territory, each night pissing on the posts to mark out and remind whose patch this is. Whenever someone dares cross into their patch, ignoring the piss, they start howling and barking in the vain hope that if loud enough and persistent enough the said intruder will leave. Keep pissing and howling Kifeas, if you must.

Pyropolizer
You asked reasonable questions and because I probably disagree with you on many things, exchange with you is fruitful (in my view). We can test the basis of our claims and counter-claims without getting into personal abuse or questioning each other's integrity or motives. At least that is what I hope is the case.

There are dozens, if not most, of the states in the world which owe their current form to past ethnic cleansing. On another thread I seem to remember, I sketched out a list of these starting with Canada and ending in Japan or Australia - the Pacific anyway. I also gave some examples of islands that have been divided, including between a much more powerful party and a weaker party. At no point have I said that these other examples are identical to Cyprus - what I have said is that they may serve as useful comparisons Kifeas et.al. refuse to accept theme as comparisons not because they know anything about these other cases but because they seem committed to the principle of blinding ignorance - if it can't be seen it can't be there, therefore it can't exist therefore it can't be true. Tough, Kifeas et. al, they are there and they do exist and they are open to comparison. The main question is how are they comparable ? How might we learn ?

So Pyropolizer, my responses to your direct questions are, for the moment :

1)Which states have been established by applying ethnic cleansing and when?


I began to list those elsehwere, as noted above. There is not, for example, a single Latin American state nor a single European state that has not established itself in whole or part on what we would now call 'ethnic cleansing'. This ethnic cleansing has a long history - hence my use of that title for the thread - some of it goes back hundreds of years, but there remain many examples including 'cleansings' (a horrible word, if I may say) which continue to the present. Some of those were listed in the article extract I posted. But you don't have to take my word for it - you might want to go and look at the dozens of historical research journals and other academic publications which document all of this. You might want to ask why there are so many international human rights organisations dedicated to remedying or uncovering these histories if, in fact, there is nothing there to uncover. You might want to ask why most states now have either written into the constitution or otherwise written into law measures to acknowledge, remedy and rectify long histories of ethnic cleansing.

2)Which of them ended up democratic?


Many, but by no means all of them. Thus New Zealand and Canada were founded on the extermination of the indigenous populations but which, in the end not only are democratic states but signed acts of settlement with the indigenous populations to restore or establish anew various rights and claims.
But ending up democratic ? Germany, France, Spain, Croatia, Poland, .... Greece, Turkey ..... Cyprus ... a long list.

However other places, Chechnya, Kurdistan, Western Sahara for example, have suffered ethnic cleansing even by states which claim to be democratic (Russia, Turkey and Morocco, in these examples). And the UK - a democracy - is guilty of the ethnic cleansing of the Chagos Islanders from Diego Garcia. Successive UK governments have been found guilty in law on numerous occasions and yet the Chagos Islanders have still not been able to secure their return to their home. Effectively many have been living in concentration camps for over thirty years.

(Kifeas et. al, just because I have mentioned Turkey here, and in a critical light, does that make me anti-Turkish ? Or maybe because I have mentioned Turkey here I'm trying to ignore Cyprus, bury it amongst all those other examples ? Please tell, oh Kifeas the Clairvoyant, what are my real motives ?)


3)How others secured a final settlement in cases of ethnic cleansing and under what conditions (capitulation perhaps?)


Big question. And actually the reason ('motive') I started this thread in the first place. There are many and detailed examples we could look at and we might learn something from them. One grand old man said (I paraphrase) 'It is said that history repeats itself as tragedy. They forgot to add that it repeats itself first time as tragedy, second time as farce.' If in the case of Cyprus we have already repeated the tragedies that have befallen others, by looking and learning from others we might escape the Cyprus problem repeating itself as the Cyprus farce.

Though judging by Kifeas et. al's responses they seem to be dedicated to the performance of an unending farce.


CopperLine,

I think you cannot accuse me of accusing you of anything, in fact I already said somewhere that you try to maintain a degree of impartiality that I personally appreciate.

Now it is true that practices of ethnic cleansing were always happening, in the same rate as wars were also happening. I consider the ethnic cleansings that happened in totalitarian regimes as happening in a state of war as well.

So I dare say all ethnic cleansings are a byproduct of war. Just like dead people killed during war.The only difference instead of being killed they run away to save their lives...

Of course I agree with you that history repeats itself, but I wouldn't say it repeats itself either as a tragedy or as a farse (whatever that means). It just repeats itself.
So.... so far we learned something. That a new war will bring out a new ethnic cleansing in Cyprus...
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Postby CopperLine » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:33 pm

Nikitas,
I'm somewhat nervous at responding to your comments and questions,

By legalisation I did not mean to infer that you proposed it. The general notion is that once a state is created by illegal means, the subsequent recognition by the victim legalises its creation and existence. Cypriots have a reflex action almost to any mention of recognition, and this goes for both sides.


for the simple reasons that others will make some perverse interpretation as to my motives and that your comments raise big issues which may spin beyond this thread. Hesitations aside, here goes :

First, I acknowledge that 'By legalisation I did not mean to infer that you proposed it' - I didn't ever think that you did (as opposed to others!)
I would use a distinction between de facto and de jure -apologies to others for the technical language, which I believe Nikitas to be familiar with, but it needs to be used to help clarify different forms of the state. Thus how a state is formed - through war, revolution, ethnic cleansing, economic reorganisation, social contract, or whatever - may take many different routes but whatever the differences a de facto state has been formed. A de facto state does not require legal recognition - de facto simply means that it is a fact, it exists. It has buildings, personnel, structures, rules, rituals etc. The de facto state is what is important to ordinary people, it is that which confronts or governs their daily life. What matters to lawyers (and those who find themselves on the 'wrong side' of the de facto state) is the de jure state, that is the state as legally defined.
That a de facto state was the product or result of ethnic cleansing, genocide, war or some other barbarism does not alter the fact that it exists. We might be horrified by it, but we can't deny it. We can't wish it away. My contention in earlier posts is that variations on the theme of barbarism is common to the creation and development of most states. (This is a historical claim so those who disgaree can present evidence to the contrary if it is there. I remain fairly confident in making this claim but am certainly open to dissuasion).
But you comment about the general notion 'that once a state is created by illegal means, the subsequent recognition by the victim legalises its creation and existence.' I'll take that in two parts. First, a de facto state, say the Soviet Union from 1917, was created out of a revolution which, by definition, was an illegal process and product. It was illegal to incite mutiny in the navy and army, it was illegal to publish 'seditious' newspapers, it was illegal to organise bolshevik and menshevik parties, it was illegal to execute the Romanovs, etc. The Russian Revolution was illegal on any number of counts and so was its product, the USSR. So was the new USA in 1776, so was the new French Republic in 1789, so was the new Iraqi state in 2005. 'Illegal' in this sense means illegal according to the laws of the predecessor state (or regime). And it did not require the Romanovs or Saddam to 'recognise' the new state to make a de facto state legal. So an important principle to recognise is that those who are ousted or those who are victims of a newly created state are clearly not needed/required to give their blessing to the new order. Thus internal recognition 'by the victim' does not 'legalises its creation and existence' and it is not necessarily required for a new state to move from a de facto status to a de jure status.
But that is internal recognition, but what about external recognition ? The second part, then, is how a de facto state is recognised de jure and this depends on the principle of recognition. Any standard international law textbook will tell you that the 1933 Montevideo Convention is an early attempt to define legally a state, and basically it says that there must be four characteristics : i, a defined territory, ii. a permanent population, iii. a government and iv. be 'capable of entering into relation with other states'. Yes, in essence, that is it. No mention of victims, no mention of how the state came into being, though to this minimal list we can probably add the principle of self-determination. On the Montevideo criteria TRNC is, without a shadow of doubt qualifies as a legally defined state. But, and there is a big BUT, of course TRNC is not recognised as a de jure state for diplomatic purposes. It does not have, in legal parlance, 'legal personality'. Or to put it another way no other international legal persons i.e states, with the exception of Turkey, recognise TRNC as a legal person (even if TRNC meets Montevideo criteria). (There's lots more legal argument about this which I won't go into but for anyone interested look at the Manchukuo case, Rhodesia, and the successor states to the USSR).
But pulling this, now, right back to the thread and your comment, Nikitas, the key point is that at no point in the legal process of the recognition of states does the fate or opinions of victims enter the equation. TRNC is not recognised not because of the traumas and tragedies visited upon Greek Cyporiots but because of the claimed illegality of either (i) the nature of the 1974 Turkish intervention, i.e, it was as a threat to international law and order, and/or (ii) the nature of Turkey's continued occupation i.e, the threat that poses to international law and order. (You might reasonably ask but what about Israel & Palestine, Israel and Lebanon, Syria and Lebanon, and ....)
Having said all of that, having said that TRNC is not a recognised state, and that TRNC has no independent 'legal personality' it does not mean that TRNC is devoid of or without international legal obligations and without other forms of legal recognition. For example, every time the EU or UNDP gives monies to north Cyprus it is signing paperwork with a legal entity. Every time Tpap speaks to Tat he is recognising a person who is internally recognised by a state which he otherwise holds to be illegal.

Anyway, this is a long way round saying that the tragedies that befall a people may not, and routinely do not, have ANY consequence on legal recognition and legal legitimacy of states. That may be a depressing conclusion to come to, but I would emphasise that these are not my laws these are the international laws that for better or worse we've been saddled with. Don't shoot the messenger.
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Postby growuptcs » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:03 pm

CopperLine, thats all mumbo jumbo to my eyes reading your post. Turkeys back door policy on Cyprus, in the long run SHOULDN'T stick because ethnic cleansing is not a solution to human and EU values. It'll only bring us back to square one, with no equality. So dust yourself off and try again.
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Postby Nikitas » Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:13 pm

Copperline,

Your post brought back those nights I burned the midnight oil studying Public International Law!

If the Republic of Cyprus tomorrow were to announce that it cedes so much per cent of its territory to the TRNC that would be instant and irrefutable de jure rcognition. Somewhat like the first exchange of ambassadors between Britain and the US. This illustrates best what I termed recognition by the victims, in this case the victim being ther RoC, the state which loses territory to the new entity. Until such recognition is granted the claims of the individual victims remain intact, ie the personal claims by those who lost enjoyment and possession of their proptery etc.

What I am not legally sure about is whether the individual claims would be wiped out if the new entity were to enter automatically (by virtue of Cyprus as a whole being a member) of the EU. Can the individuals be divested of their property in this case? So the individuals too would have to legalise the new entity by settling their claims. Although if there was no membership in the EU then the issue would be settled somewhat arbitrarily. It would not come to the fore till the new entity tries to gain membership in the EU. We are seeing a parallel situation with Greek properties in Instanbul and the islands of Imvros and Tenedos now that Turkey is trying to enter the EU.

In regard to Cyprus the territorial aspect, which I regarded as the most serious aspect from the day that the Attila II operation was complete, has been complicated by issues of communal equality, constitutional arrangements etc.

The territorial issues is paramount precisely because a new state must have defined territory as one of the criteria of statehood. The moment we saw that this aspect had been gained by Turkey we had to switch thinking and think as our adversary does- strategically. We did not. Instead we opted for legalities, perhaps because there we had the upper hand. The vital aspects in strategic thinking, since we accepted the bi regional and bi communal nature of a future settlement would be to ensure two aspects that are now wide open-

1- what happens in the future if there is a manufactured crisis and one of the states secedes from the federation. In such an event de jure recognition would be a foregone conclusion.

2- What will be the status of the British base territory if Britain decides to leave. If the issue is not settled in advance there is a potential conflict and the future federal state being demilitarised it is easy to guess who will lose.

3- the apportionment of the territory is also vital. In addition to it reflecting the population ratio as it was before the invasion it must also reflect a fair distribution of the resources, including the coastline which in a tourist economy is the primary resource.

From a public relations point of view the Greek demands for fair territorial distribution would have been more easily understood than the legalities. It is easy to glance at a map and agree that these guys are 82 per cent of the population and so it is fair to give them that much of the territory. It is an anglosaxon approach in its bluntness but effective.

The remainder of the issues could have been settled after the territorial issue was settled. And then it would have been much easier for the two communities to decide the nature of the settlement- federation, confederation, even a unitary state with two internal administrative regions.

Along with many others I believe that Turkey's intentions are cynical to the point that it is planning to engineer a conflict so as to break apart any future biregional state. So it is best to be prepared than be sorry.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Wed Oct 03, 2007 9:58 pm

CopperLine,

Here are some criteria used to define a de-jure state. Actually there is no internationally accepted criterion or rule or law to define a de jure state not even in the UN. There are hundreds of sets of criteria e.g in shipping/transport conventions one of the criteria to recognise a country could even be one where ships or lother transporters can do transhipments

http://geography.about.com/cs/political ... nation.htm

Has space or territory which has internationally recognized boundaries (boundary disputes are OK).
Has people who live there on an ongoing basis.
Has economic activity and an organized economy. A country regulates foreign and domestic trade and issues money.
Has the power of social engineering, such as education.
Has a transportation system for moving goods and people.
Has a government which provides public services and police power.
Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country's territory.
Has external recognition. A country has been "voted into the club" by other countries.
There are currently 192 independent countries or States around the world. Territories of countries or individual parts of a country are not countries in their own right.


It seems no set of criteria is enough to describe what a de-jure country is, in fact any Gc would immediately put down the criteria that a)people living in that state have ownership of most of the country’s lands b) the country is not a product of ethnic cleansing of THE MAJORITY of inhabitants (contrary to the usual ethnic cleansings of minorities).

So in the end what makes a de-jure state is recognition by other states. I don’t think there’s any chance in a million for the "trnc" will ever de-jure recognition by any country, mainly because it is against the very terms those countries may continue to exist by themselves.
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Postby phoenix » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:07 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:

Has sovereignty. No other State should have power over the country's territory.
Has external recognition. A country has been "voted into the club" by other countries.



At the very least these two points exclude the pseudo-TRNC from recognition as a state worthy of any description.
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Postby Kifeas » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:15 pm

CopperLine wrote:Nikitas,
I'm somewhat nervous at responding to your comments and questions,

By legalisation I did not mean to infer that you proposed it. The general notion is that once a state is created by illegal means, the subsequent recognition by the victim legalises its creation and existence. Cypriots have a reflex action almost to any mention of recognition, and this goes for both sides.


for the simple reasons that others will make some perverse interpretation as to my motives and that your comments raise big issues which may spin beyond this thread. Hesitations aside, here goes :

First, I acknowledge that 'By legalisation I did not mean to infer that you proposed it' - I didn't ever think that you did (as opposed to others!)
I would use a distinction between de facto and de jure -apologies to others for the technical language, which I believe Nikitas to be familiar with, but it needs to be used to help clarify different forms of the state. Thus how a state is formed - through war, revolution, ethnic cleansing, economic reorganisation, social contract, or whatever - may take many different routes but whatever the differences a de facto state has been formed. A de facto state does not require legal recognition - de facto simply means that it is a fact, it exists. It has buildings, personnel, structures, rules, rituals etc. The de facto state is what is important to ordinary people, it is that which confronts or governs their daily life. What matters to lawyers (and those who find themselves on the 'wrong side' of the de facto state) is the de jure state, that is the state as legally defined.
That a de facto state was the product or result of ethnic cleansing, genocide, war or some other barbarism does not alter the fact that it exists. We might be horrified by it, but we can't deny it. We can't wish it away. My contention in earlier posts is that variations on the theme of barbarism is common to the creation and development of most states. (This is a historical claim so those who disgaree can present evidence to the contrary if it is there. I remain fairly confident in making this claim but am certainly open to dissuasion).
But you comment about the general notion 'that once a state is created by illegal means, the subsequent recognition by the victim legalises its creation and existence.' I'll take that in two parts. First, a de facto state, say the Soviet Union from 1917, was created out of a revolution which, by definition, was an illegal process and product. It was illegal to incite mutiny in the navy and army, it was illegal to publish 'seditious' newspapers, it was illegal to organise bolshevik and menshevik parties, it was illegal to execute the Romanovs, etc. The Russian Revolution was illegal on any number of counts and so was its product, the USSR. So was the new USA in 1776, so was the new French Republic in 1789, so was the new Iraqi state in 2005. 'Illegal' in this sense means illegal according to the laws of the predecessor state (or regime). And it did not require the Romanovs or Saddam to 'recognise' the new state to make a de facto state legal. So an important principle to recognise is that those who are ousted or those who are victims of a newly created state are clearly not needed/required to give their blessing to the new order. Thus internal recognition 'by the victim' does not 'legalises its creation and existence' and it is not necessarily required for a new state to move from a de facto status to a de jure status.
But that is internal recognition, but what about external recognition ? The second part, then, is how a de facto state is recognised de jure and this depends on the principle of recognition. Any standard international law textbook will tell you that the 1933 Montevideo Convention is an early attempt to define legally a state, and basically it says that there must be four characteristics : i, a defined territory, ii. a permanent population, iii. a government and iv. be 'capable of entering into relation with other states'. Yes, in essence, that is it. No mention of victims, no mention of how the state came into being, though to this minimal list we can probably add the principle of self-determination. On the Montevideo criteria TRNC is, without a shadow of doubt qualifies as a legally defined state. But, and there is a big BUT, of course TRNC is not recognised as a de jure state for diplomatic purposes. It does not have, in legal parlance, 'legal personality'. Or to put it another way no other international legal persons i.e states, with the exception of Turkey, recognise TRNC as a legal person (even if TRNC meets Montevideo criteria). (There's lots more legal argument about this which I won't go into but for anyone interested look at the Manchukuo case, Rhodesia, and the successor states to the USSR).
But pulling this, now, right back to the thread and your comment, Nikitas, the key point is that at no point in the legal process of the recognition of states does the fate or opinions of victims enter the equation. TRNC is not recognised not because of the traumas and tragedies visited upon Greek Cyporiots but because of the claimed illegality of either (i) the nature of the 1974 Turkish intervention, i.e, it was as a threat to international law and order, and/or (ii) the nature of Turkey's continued occupation i.e, the threat that poses to international law and order. (You might reasonably ask but what about Israel & Palestine, Israel and Lebanon, Syria and Lebanon, and ....)
Having said all of that, having said that TRNC is not a recognised state, and that TRNC has no independent 'legal personality' it does not mean that TRNC is devoid of or without international legal obligations and without other forms of legal recognition. For example, every time the EU or UNDP gives monies to north Cyprus it is signing paperwork with a legal entity. Every time Tpap speaks to Tat he is recognising a person who is internally recognised by a state which he otherwise holds to be illegal.

Anyway, this is a long way round saying that the tragedies that befall a people may not, and routinely do not, have ANY consequence on legal recognition and legal legitimacy of states. That may be a depressing conclusion to come to, but I would emphasise that these are not my laws these are the international laws that for better or worse we've been saddled with. Don't shoot the messenger.


What a pile of nonsense!

First of all, you are unable to make a distinction between international law as we understand and we refer to it in our times, which basically emerged in the post WWII years and is the product or centres around the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the UN Charter; and the prior situation during which the relationship between or among states was more or less defined through bi-lateral international agreements and treaties, mainly to serve interests, and outside any concept of natural law, principles and ethical parameters.

Secondly, you made some claims which are completely false and absurd! You said the Bolshevik revolution was illegal because of this and that, etc! It was illegal according to which laws? Which legitimacy did the Bolshevik revolution violated, and since when a revolution against a monarchy (i.e. against a totalitarian and as such, an illegitimate regime,) is an illegal act? This is rubbish! What legitimised the Romanovs, for the Bolshevik revolution to have been an illegitimate or an illegal one; and whose laws did it violate? Next think you will tell us is that the Greek revolution against the Ottoman Empire was also illegal, or the GC anti-colonial struggle against the British was illegal too! Were the Romanovs, the Ottoman conquerors and the British colonialists legitimate and lawful, for the uprisings to have been the opposite?

Copperline, I think you are very confused and you also improvise a lot! Your sentiments and desires push into very absurd and provocative rationalisations! Alas, if we are to use the situation that existed before WWII, (the law of the jungle so to say, which humanity has put an effort to bring to an end with the establishment of the UN, international courts, the UN Charter and the UD of Human rights,) as a basis or an example on which to solve international problems today! Your attempted use of such examples is dangerous, to say the list, for it will take us years back and into the dark ages of human history!

Another point! You talk about "de facto" states, but you fail to also consider "de facto" and "de jure" court decisions and UN / CoE resolutions on the same matter! If the difference between the notions of "de facto" and "de jure" was nowadays so insignificant -as you try to make it sound, then the EU would have taken a much different political approach when acceding Cyprus as a member state, than the one manifested in protocol 10 of the treaty of accession!
Last edited by Kifeas on Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Get Real! » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:20 pm

Pyrpolizer wrote:CopperLine,

Here are some criteria used to define a de-jure state.

Peeeeee flyaria! :lol:
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Postby CopperLine » Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:30 pm

What I am not legally sure about is whether the individual claims would be wiped out if the new entity were to enter automatically (by virtue of Cyprus as a whole being a member) of the EU. Can the individuals be divested of their property in this case? So the individuals too would have to legalise the new entity by settling their claims.


If what you propose had happened, let's say, fifty years ago or even thirty years ago, then I think that individual grievances and claims would have been overridden by the state's willingness to come to a general settlement with a previously hostile party.
However there have been so many developments in international law, particularly EU law and human rights law (and because Cyprus is now a member of the EU), that even if a general settlement were secured this could not be at the expense of loss of individual rights, for example regarding property. If RoC tried to come to some settlement with TRNC/Turkey which somehow resulted in the breach of GC or TC human rights then I would anticipate that the settlement itself as well as the results of the settlement would be challenged before domestic courts, European courts as well as the ECHR.

Of course one might say that legal challenges take so long and are so convoluted that state parties might simply say that in order to secure a settlement the threat of facing dozens or hundreds of legal challenges is still worth taking. So my interpretation, for what it is worth, of your question as to whether individuals can be divested of their property in this case would be, no. If that opinion holds, it therefore follows that the individuals would NOT have to legalise the new entity by settling their claims. They could still support (or oppose) the broad settlement WITHOUT compromising the strength of their human rights claims.
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