Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

Pyropolizer,
You wrote,

CopperLine you haven't picked any of the cases of ethnic cleansing, you haven't checked the facts of any of them, and you haven't proposed anything specific. In fact all you said is "you don't know" how to solve the problem. You 've been very careful not to engage yourself with any option although at some points you slipped a bit and you showed your inclination.

Two things to say to this, First, a number of posters principal reaction has been to insist that any attempts at comparison or reference to other historical cases are tom be rejected out of hand. The Cyprus problem is unique, in their argument, and does not bear comparison. Somehow they want to make that assertion without first knowing about these other cases - so how would they know whether they were pertinent or valid or not ? And I note that you have not taken these posters to task for this elementary logical and investigative error.

Second, contrary to what you have just written, I have floated various possible comparisons through this thread and other threads. Of course I could have gone into more detail- albeit risking the charge that I'd be burying the Cyprus problem in other cases, I'd be belittling the Cyprus tragedy, that I was citing examples that were too old, and any other number of false charges - and I'd be happy to explore these further. Nevertheless I do repeat that 'I don't know' if any particular comparisons or historical examples will prove useful or instructive. This can't be a foregone conclusion. I do not presume that my lonesome efforts are going to produce a solution to the Cyprus problem ! As I said in another thread, we'll make mistakes, we'll get things wrong, but the sine qua non of a resolution to the Cyprus problem is that it is a collective and joint endeavour and consequence (of people who have otherwise expressed hatred and loathing for each other) and not the good-intentioned musings of any individual.

If and when you select a specific conflict that resembles the Cyprus problem; a sovereign country having its rights constantly violated by a hostile neighbor, and subsequently pinpoint to the specific relevant aspects you're referring to, you may have a case for discussion but until that time comes this thread isn’t going anywhere and you’ve only got yourself to blame.

[Pyrpolizer]

CopperLine,

The self determination right is a right applied to groups, and it IS NOT FREELY EXTENDABLE to the degree of violating other peoples self determination or other human rights.
Therefore the LIMITED self determination right of Cypriot groups (called communities) was and is STILL limited by those simple factors. The sum of those LIMITED self determination rights formed the Cypriot people's self determination UNLIMITED right, which gave birth to the Republic of Cyprus in 1960. From that point on, we have a definite meaning of what "a people" is in Cyprus, and how they have a COLLECTIVE UNLIMITED self determination right.

Therefore I repeat neither the TCs nor the GCs have a separate UNLIMITED self determination right in Cyprus, for the same reasons they never had one, and for the same reasons that the Republic of Cyprus was formed in 1960 carrying the sum of partial/limited self determination rights of Cypriot groups.

It is obvious to me you are always concentrating on single UN/human right issues without checking to what extend those rights become limited or contradictory to other issues or human rights.

Coming back to the Cyprus example, isn't any proposal for a bi-communal, bi-zonal or indeed any federal solution predicated on the recognition of the right to self-determination of TCs (and indeed GCs) ?

Absolutely not. In fact it is an expression of the fact that both the TCs rights to self determination as the one of the GCs are LIMITED because otherwise they would overlap the other group’s rights.

The differences are that some people argue that a full expression of the TC right to self-determination would be found in a separate & sovereign state, whilst others argue that TC self-determination could be secured and confirmed in a federal state.

And here is your basic mistake in assuming the self determination right of any group is UNLIMITED. Should I go on and indicate you one by one the tens of rights of Greek and other Cypriots such an UNLIMITED application of the principle of self determination of the TCs, would bridge?

[CopperLine]

Pyroplizer,
I do agree 100% with your sentence, if one goes with collective/group rights that "the solution relies on a very deligate balance of each ones rights, and it will hardly be whatever you or us might have as first choice."

So, looking at other examples of ethnic cleansing and atrocities (no two of which will be exactly the same, but nevertheless may have useful points of comparison), how was this delicate balance achieved ? Which rights were voluntarily held in abeyance, which rights were not fully expressed by different communities in order that a peaceful and just (at least, acceptable) settlement could be secured ? Which first choices had to be given up and second bests accepted ? (I'll open another thread on that, by the way)


Get Real,

If and when you select a specific conflict that resembles the Cyprus problem; a sovereign country having its rights constantly violated by a hostile neighbor

If you can be bothered, read the opening article I posted on this thread. I hope that you are not claiming that Cyprus is the only country having its rights constantly violated by its neighbour !

[Pyrpolizer]

Two things to say to this, First, a number of posters principal reaction has been to insist that any attempts at comparison or reference to other historical cases are tom be rejected out of hand. The Cyprus problem is unique, in their argument, and does not bear comparison. Somehow they want to make that assertion without first knowing about these other cases - so how would they know whether they were pertinent or valid or not ? And I note that you have not taken these posters to task for this elementary logical and investigative error.

Propably because they can’t think of any of them that has not ended in capitulation?

Second, contrary to what you have just written, I have floated various possible comparisons through this thread and other threads. Of course I could have gone into more detail- albeit risking the charge that I'd be burying the Cyprus problem in other cases, I'd be belittling the Cyprus tragedy, that I was citing examples that were too old, and any other number of false charges - and I'd be happy to explore these further. Nevertheless I do repeat that 'I don't know' if any particular comparisons or historical examples will prove useful or instructive. This can't be a foregone conclusion. I do not presume that my lonesome efforts are going to produce a solution to the Cyprus problem ! As I said in another thread, we'll make mistakes, we'll get things wrong, but the sine qua non of a resolution to the Cyprus problem is that it is a collective and joint endeavour and consequence (of people who have otherwise expressed hatred and loathing for each other) and not the good-intentioned musings of any individual.

This is what I was saying all along CopperLine.

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyroplizer,
I do agree 100% with your sentence, if one goes with collective/group rights that "the solution relies on a very deligate balance of each ones rights, and it will hardly be whatever you or us might have as first choice."

So, looking at other examples of ethnic cleansing and atrocities (no two of which will be exactly the same, but nevertheless may have useful points of comparison), how was this delicate balance achieved ? Which rights were voluntarily held in abeyance, which rights were not fully expressed by different communities in order that a peaceful and just (at least, acceptable) settlement could be secured ? Which first choices had to be given up and second bests accepted ? (I'll open another thread on that, by the way)

I am glad we finally have a common ground CopperLine.

As soon as you open a new topic I will be there to tell my opinion. Preliminarily I tell you my personal opinion for a solution in Cyprus is for both communities to return to the 1960 constitution, sustain it with sacrifices for a period of maximum 1-2 years, and work from within that already agreed legal structure towards a Federal solution.. Unfortunately the 1960 constitution -although it is the only legally acceptable thing we have- is imo unworkable and unsustainable for more that say maximum 2 years. The only reason it currently works is because the TCs are out....

The benefits of this proposal are
a)It brings the TCs out of isolation automatically-which currently is their biggest problem, economically socially etc
b) It almost automatically solves the property issue-which for the GCs is currently their biggest problem

It leaves only the matter of final power sharing and withdrawal of troops on which more or less we already agreed as to what will happen.

[Kifeas]

Viwpoint,

Those people that aare going to lift your isolation, if they do, are the same people who will demand that you apply their rules regarding humanr rights in the north of Cyprus. Are you sure you can handle doing both things at once?

You rejoice at Copperline's writing of the right of self determination for Turkish Cypriots. Read Copperline's posts again carefully and you will notice that he also believes, and quotes authorities, that show any recognitions or solution must take into account rights of the other side. So you may have a solution which in the end is not at all how you imagine. SO go read again what Copperline wrote in this thread and others.

Nikita, what that you are saying between the lines mate? Are you saying that we are better off to give into your (GC) demands and become second class citizens in a Greek society without being allowed to be identified as Turkish Cypriots instead of becoming independent and giving those who recognise us for what we are (Turkish Cypriots with human rights) human rights?

Really???

Oh, “the GCs want us to become second class citizens without being allowed to be identified as Turkish Cypriots!!!” “Oh my God, the fascist GCs want screw us!!!” “Oh my god, the bad GCs!!!”

What are our (GC) demands, “be kourabiye,” that will make you “become second class citizens in a Greek society without being allowed to be identified as Turkish Cypriots??? What are they? Do you know? You know shit of what you are talking about! Tell us then, if you do! “Ic oglan!”

[zan]

Viwpoint,

Those people that aare going to lift your isolation, if they do, are the same people who will demand that you apply their rules regarding humanr rights in the north of Cyprus. Are you sure you can handle doing both things at once?

You rejoice at Copperline's writing of the right of self determination for Turkish Cypriots. Read Copperline's posts again carefully and you will notice that he also believes, and quotes authorities, that show any recognitions or solution must take into account rights of the other side. So you may have a solution which in the end is not at all how you imagine. SO go read again what Copperline wrote in this thread and others.

Nikita, what that you are saying between the lines mate? Are you saying that we are better off to give into your (GC) demands and become second class citizens in a Greek society without being allowed to be identified as Turkish Cypriots instead of becoming independent and giving those who recognise us for what we are (Turkish Cypriots with human rights) human rights?

Really??? What are our (GC) demands, “be kourabiye,” that make you “become second class citizens in a Greek society without being allowed to be identified as Turkish Cypriots??? What are they? Do you know? You know shit of what you are talking about! Tells then, if you do! “Ic, oglan!”

Re Kifeas...Are you taking steroids as well for your workouts at the gym....It will effect your IQ in the end mate...I know how much that means to you so.......

[Kifeas]

Copperline, I will try to remain calm, without insulting you, even though being a victim my self of Turkey’s aggression, occupation and theft of my properties and my heritage, it is somewhat very difficult to hold my temper when reading your obscenities!

You say the Scots have a right to self determination, correct? Correct! I agree with you! However, the Scots have a country that is called Scotland, which they inherited and used to live there for centuries, alone or as the overwhelming majority! Do we agree? I suppose we do on this one too! Since you used the case of the Scots as a reference or a parallelism, can you tell me where this TCland is located on this planet, so that we can say that the TCs constitute a people with their own inherited country, in which they were the indigenous people and the owners of it -alone or even by majority, so that we can also accept that they should also have the same right? Can you show or point this TCland on the map?

Please bear in mind what I said in the first paragraph, and be careful for once in how you will respond to me on this above question!

[Kifeas]

Re Kifeas...Are you taking steroids as well for your workouts at the gym....It will effect your IQ in the end mate...I know how much that means to you so.......

Of cource!!!! How can one “ic oglan,” (Zanli Zany,) will not rush to the support of another “ic oglan,” (Eric kabadayi???) Impossible!!!

[boomerang]

I asked copperline before if he knew of any other case studies where ethnic cleansing was rejected and reversed and he avoided the question...

why is that?...maybe there isn't any cases?...copperline?