CopperLine wrote:Pyropolizer,
In reply to UTU you wrote, 'You forgot to say that convention was for already established states, who just wanted to finalise their existence.' This is not correct. The Convention aims, as UTU said, to codify customary law and to that extent is intended to confirm criteria of legal statehood. As Brownlie argued, cited by GR in that other thread, many other commentators argue that Montevideo C criteria are, at best, necessary criteria but not sufficient for de jure recognition.
Even so, this still does not erase the distinction between de facto and de jure.
Much of the argument revolves around this distinction : On the one hand there are those who see (A) the de facto state of TRNC or X (or whatever you want to call it) as the expression of self-determination of Turkish Cypriots, albeit supported in that aim by a foreign power. On the other hand there are those who see (B) the de facto state of TRNC or X as simply and only the creation of Turkey out of a land under occupation.
If you acknowledge the right of self-determination - entirely consistent with modern international law, and one of those 'extra' criteria of de jure statehood - then the Turkish Cypriots have been denied their national rights to the extent that TRNC remains unrecognised. That claim is consistent with (A) and is consistent with a claim under international law to state recognition.
If on the other hand you believe that there is not and has not been any genuine movement for Turkish Cypriot self-determination and that Turkey has simply invaded and occupied and created a colonial entity then, the fact that TRNC is a de facto state will does nothing to advance its
de jure recognition. The origins of the state are, on that reading, internationally illegal and continued occupation is internationally illegal.
In my view it all hinges on whether one acknowledges (A) or whether one insists on (B).
It is worth adding that the argument of self-determination does not rest on whether RoC or GCs think that TCs are right or wrong, nor whether RoC or GCs think that TCs have broken the constitution or carried out an illegal separation. Self-determination is a right of a people. We might not like the result, but we can't take away that right.
CopperLine, I have seen many schizophrenics pretending the experts, but you beat nearly all of them!
There can be no-self determination right on the basis of ethnic cleansing of the entire historically indigenous population of a place and the theft and usurpation of such people (the owners so to say) of their properties and their ages long heritage! Your notion of TC self determination is absurd! You are absurd! You are a schizophrenic to even dare introduce such a concept in the case of Cyprus! You must be the biggest fool on earth to even think about it!
Listen everybody what this fool is saying! He basically says the following: One very large country invades another smaller one using some loose, cheap and ridiculous pre-text; kicks out the owners of the place, steals all their patrimonial properties and homes, usurps all their churches, their ancient monuments, their ancestors' graveyards, their history and their cultural heritage; gathers a minority of population scattered around a much larger area of the country, then imports vast numbers of its own citizens into the invaded and occupied area; and then, these people -the trespassers so to say into what belongs to the previously ethnically cleansed owners of the place, constitute now a “people” with its “own” territory, history and heritage, and therefore have also the "right" of self determination! Absurd! Schizophrenic! Ridiculous, cynical and provocative to even think about it -set aside to suggest it too!
My ridiculous and schizophrenic friend, Copperline, there can be NO self-determination right of anyone so called people, on the basis of another people's violation of fundamental human and other natural, civil, cultural, heritage and historical rights! Only sick minds can possibly think of such a notion or possibility! The TC COMMUNITY of Cyprus does not constitute a separate people, in the sense in which international law assigns the right of self-determination! The TC COMMUNITY is a minority; historically and so far still legally, scattered around the whole of Cyprus; intermixed with another much larger community! The TC COMMUNITY has never been the historical owners of any separate part or territory of Cyprus -not even by majority; for them to claim that they constitute a separate people entity that should also posses a separate self determination right, at least in its full and comprehensive sense!
You are a donkey if you believe that under the historical, demographic, natural and legal circumstances of Cyprus, the TC COMMUNITY plus the imported settlers from Turkey (in violation of yet another international law,) can apply a so called self-determination right on the basis of stolen areas, lands and territories that do not even belong to them, but they legally belong to other people instead!
Results and fait accomplices obtained in violation of so many international laws and human rights principles can never in our age become white washed and vindicated through the use of the same principles! Illegalities and illegitimacies cannot possibly constitute a basis to produce rights, justice and law on other issues or aspects!
