Cyprus-Forum.com

[CopperLine]

Kifeas,

I've no idea why you refuse to recognise the distinction between de facto and de jure . It is a basic legal distinction recognised by people around the world with no problem. You, however, seem to know better than all the courts, all the jurists and all the lawyers. Carry on in your de facto fantasy world if you wish.

De Jure - Republic of Cyprus
De Facto - Republic of Cyprus and TRNC

You don't like the acronym TRNC ? OK, put it in scare quotes, 'TRNC'. You don't like that either ? OK call it the Turkish Cypriot community ? Maybe you don't like that, then call it north Cyprus. You don't like that either ? OK, then call it Turkish occupied Cyprus. You don't like that ? The call it whatever you like ..... change the name a thousand times and a thousand times again and end up calling it X, the fact remains that (a) X is not a de jure state and (b) X is a de facto state.

De jure - Republic of Cyprus
De facto - Republic of Cyprus and X

Any agreement on Cyprus can only be between the two communities!

Maybe so, but the fact remains that somebody, some entity is speaking on behalf of the Turkish Cypriot community, and at the moment that is Talat and co. You may want to refer to him as 'self-styled leader/president of the Turkish Cypriot community' but regardless of how he styles himself, he's the one who Tpap, EU, UN etc are talking to. They too, de facto deal with him and his administration.

Sinn Fein was never de jure the voice of the IRA; Sinn Fein was never the de jure representatives of republicans or catholics in northern Ireland. But who was it that the British government fought ? Who was it that the British government tried to silence ? Who was it that the British government negotiated with ? Who was it that the British government came to a settlement with ? Sinn Fein, an unrecognised but de facto independence movement.
And the Israelis refused to recognise the PLO for thirty plus years and yet who was it they were negotiating with ? The PLO, an unrecognised but de facto independence movement.
And who is Tpap, the UN and the EU talking with here ? The administrative and executive officers of an unrecognised but de facto state. And if these unrecognised people are so unimportant and so trivial - that is they're illegal - why the hell are Tpap, the UN and EU not only taking to them but giving them money, technical support, opening borders etc ? Seems a bizarre thing to do for an entity which according to your book of fiction does not exist.


The de jure- de facto distinction is a fairly simple concept, but for some reason you - who don't hesitate to judge that I am 'a numskull with zero knowledge on international law and affairs' - just don't get it.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[74LB]

Kifeas,
If TRNC is not a party then who was that chap Talat who Tpap was talking to a couple of weeks ago ? If TRNC is not a party why is it that the UN and EU keep insisting on getting negotiations up and running again between the parties ? If the TRNC is not a party why is there a bloody great barrier running across the island ?

Who represents the TC community as a party ? The govt of the TRNC. You might not like it, I might not like it, but that is who the TC party is.

Learn the language, learn the distinction between de facto and de jure "before coming here to talk" as you so kindly put it.

Oh c'mon! You are such a numskull!

Who talks about "TRNC" as a party in any negotiations? Do the UN? Does the EU? Does the UK? Who, outside the Turkish newspapers and politicians? Show me one single official document by any of the above entities that make reference to a “TRNC!” Did you ever read a single UN resolution on Cyprus?

Talat is the recognised leader of the TC COMMUNITY, and it is under this capacity that he enters negotiations with the leader of the GC community, and not under any capacity of any sort of “president” of any "TRNC!" “TRNC" is an invalid entity, by UN resolutions! It cannot possibly constitute a party in any agreement! Even the Annan plan did not talk about "TRNC," as an existing entity -set aside a party in the then proposed agreement! Any agreement on Cyprus can only be between the two communities! The two communities do not constitute territorial entities, set aside state ones! Read the RoC constitution to understand what the terms "communities" mean, and who their representatives are or can be! I am afraid you are a numskull with zero knowledge on international law and affairs, to make such claims and even insist on top of them, when the facts are entirely different!

A quick search of the UN and EU website for the term 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' or 'TRNC', showed the following examples..........

From the UN site ....

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UN/UNPAN023175.pdf

or

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/repertoire/89-92/CHAPTER%208/EUROPE/item%2017%20_Cyprus_.pdf

From the EU site .....

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/03/786&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

or

http://curia.europa.eu/en/actu/activites/act00/0021en.htm

So I guess it does exist.

[DT.]

Kifeas,
If TRNC is not a party then who was that chap Talat who Tpap was talking to a couple of weeks ago ? If TRNC is not a party why is it that the UN and EU keep insisting on getting negotiations up and running again between the parties ? If the TRNC is not a party why is there a bloody great barrier running across the island ?

Who represents the TC community as a party ? The govt of the TRNC. You might not like it, I might not like it, but that is who the TC party is.

Learn the language, learn the distinction between de facto and de jure "before coming here to talk" as you so kindly put it.

Oh c'mon! You are such a numskull!

Who talks about "TRNC" as a party in any negotiations? Do the UN? Does the EU? Does the UK? Who, outside the Turkish newspapers and politicians? Show me one single official document by any of the above entities that make reference to a “TRNC!” Did you ever read a single UN resolution on Cyprus?

Talat is the recognised leader of the TC COMMUNITY, and it is under this capacity that he enters negotiations with the leader of the GC community, and not under any capacity of any sort of “president” of any "TRNC!" “TRNC" is an invalid entity, by UN resolutions! It cannot possibly constitute a party in any agreement! Even the Annan plan did not talk about "TRNC," as an existing entity -set aside a party in the then proposed agreement! Any agreement on Cyprus can only be between the two communities! The two communities do not constitute territorial entities, set aside state ones! Read the RoC constitution to understand what the terms "communities" mean, and who their representatives are or can be! I am afraid you are a numskull with zero knowledge on international law and affairs, to make such claims and even insist on top of them, when the facts are entirely different!

A quick search of the UN and EU website for the term 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' or 'TRNC', showed the following examples..........

From the UN site ....

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UN/UNPAN023175.pdf

or

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/repertoire/89-92/CHAPTER%208/EUROPE/item%2017%20_Cyprus_.pdf

From the EU site .....

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/03/786&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

or

http://curia.europa.eu/en/actu/activites/act00/0021en.htm

So I guess it does exist.

Ahem, if you read the first page in small print you wil find:

The mentioning of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus does not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the
Secretariat of the United Nations.

As for the european page its simply to remind everyone that the "trnc" can't trade with anyone.

Since a 1994 judgement of the European Court of Justice, movement certificates issued by "TRNC authorities" have not been accepted under the Association Agreement between Cyprus and the EC.

the last one is even a little embarassing for the "trnc"

Following the judgment in Anastasiou I, exporters who had until then been shipping citrus fruit from the northern part of Cyprus to the United Kingdom under cover of phytosanitary certificates issued by officials of the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus‘, rather than by the competent authorities of the Republic of Cyprus

,

[74LB]

Kifeas,
If TRNC is not a party then who was that chap Talat who Tpap was talking to a couple of weeks ago ? If TRNC is not a party why is it that the UN and EU keep insisting on getting negotiations up and running again between the parties ? If the TRNC is not a party why is there a bloody great barrier running across the island ?

Who represents the TC community as a party ? The govt of the TRNC. You might not like it, I might not like it, but that is who the TC party is.

Learn the language, learn the distinction between de facto and de jure "before coming here to talk" as you so kindly put it.

Oh c'mon! You are such a numskull!

Who talks about "TRNC" as a party in any negotiations? Do the UN? Does the EU? Does the UK? Who, outside the Turkish newspapers and politicians? Show me one single official document by any of the above entities that make reference to a “TRNC!” Did you ever read a single UN resolution on Cyprus?

Talat is the recognised leader of the TC COMMUNITY, and it is under this capacity that he enters negotiations with the leader of the GC community, and not under any capacity of any sort of “president” of any "TRNC!" “TRNC" is an invalid entity, by UN resolutions! It cannot possibly constitute a party in any agreement! Even the Annan plan did not talk about "TRNC," as an existing entity -set aside a party in the then proposed agreement! Any agreement on Cyprus can only be between the two communities! The two communities do not constitute territorial entities, set aside state ones! Read the RoC constitution to understand what the terms "communities" mean, and who their representatives are or can be! I am afraid you are a numskull with zero knowledge on international law and affairs, to make such claims and even insist on top of them, when the facts are entirely different!

A quick search of the UN and EU website for the term 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' or 'TRNC', showed the following examples..........

From the UN site ....

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UN/UNPAN023175.pdf

or

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/repertoire/89-92/CHAPTER%208/EUROPE/item%2017%20_Cyprus_.pdf

From the EU site .....

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/03/786&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

or

http://curia.europa.eu/en/actu/activites/act00/0021en.htm

So I guess it does exist.

Ahem, if you read the first page in small print you wil find:

The mentioning of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus does not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the
Secretariat of the United Nations.

As for the european page its simply to remind everyone that the "trnc" can't trade with anyone.

Since a 1994 judgement of the European Court of Justice, movement certificates issued by "TRNC authorities" have not been accepted under the Association Agreement between Cyprus and the EC.

the last one is even a little embarassing for the "trnc"

Following the judgment in Anastasiou I, exporters who had until then been shipping citrus fruit from the northern part of Cyprus to the United Kingdom under cover of phytosanitary certificates issued by officials of the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus‘, rather than by the competent authorities of the Republic of Cyprus

,

That's not what was asked.........."Show me one single official document by any of the above entities that make reference to a “TRNC!” .........was the question.

[DT.]

Kifeas,
If TRNC is not a party then who was that chap Talat who Tpap was talking to a couple of weeks ago ? If TRNC is not a party why is it that the UN and EU keep insisting on getting negotiations up and running again between the parties ? If the TRNC is not a party why is there a bloody great barrier running across the island ?

Who represents the TC community as a party ? The govt of the TRNC. You might not like it, I might not like it, but that is who the TC party is.

Learn the language, learn the distinction between de facto and de jure "before coming here to talk" as you so kindly put it.

Oh c'mon! You are such a numskull!

Who talks about "TRNC" as a party in any negotiations? Do the UN? Does the EU? Does the UK? Who, outside the Turkish newspapers and politicians? Show me one single official document by any of the above entities that make reference to a “TRNC!” Did you ever read a single UN resolution on Cyprus?

Talat is the recognised leader of the TC COMMUNITY, and it is under this capacity that he enters negotiations with the leader of the GC community, and not under any capacity of any sort of “president” of any "TRNC!" “TRNC" is an invalid entity, by UN resolutions! It cannot possibly constitute a party in any agreement! Even the Annan plan did not talk about "TRNC," as an existing entity -set aside a party in the then proposed agreement! Any agreement on Cyprus can only be between the two communities! The two communities do not constitute territorial entities, set aside state ones! Read the RoC constitution to understand what the terms "communities" mean, and who their representatives are or can be! I am afraid you are a numskull with zero knowledge on international law and affairs, to make such claims and even insist on top of them, when the facts are entirely different!

A quick search of the UN and EU website for the term 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus' or 'TRNC', showed the following examples..........

From the UN site ....

http://unpan1.un.org/intradoc/groups/public/documents/UN/UNPAN023175.pdf

or

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/repertoire/89-92/CHAPTER%208/EUROPE/item%2017%20_Cyprus_.pdf

From the EU site .....

http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleasesAction.do?reference=IP/03/786&format=HTML&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

or

http://curia.europa.eu/en/actu/activites/act00/0021en.htm

So I guess it does exist.

Ahem, if you read the first page in small print you wil find:

The mentioning of the Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus does not imply official endorsement or acceptance by the
Secretariat of the United Nations.

As for the european page its simply to remind everyone that the "trnc" can't trade with anyone.

Since a 1994 judgement of the European Court of Justice, movement certificates issued by "TRNC authorities" have not been accepted under the Association Agreement between Cyprus and the EC.

the last one is even a little embarassing for the "trnc"

Following the judgment in Anastasiou I, exporters who had until then been shipping citrus fruit from the northern part of Cyprus to the United Kingdom under cover of phytosanitary certificates issued by officials of the 'Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus‘, rather than by the competent authorities of the Republic of Cyprus

,

That's not what was asked.........."Show me one single official document by any of the above entities that make reference to a “TRNC!” .........was the question.

my apologies then. I actually prefer the "trnc" to mentioned in this light from these organisations. Just reminds people that its not recognised.

[Pyrpolizer]

Kifeas,
If TRNC is not a party then who was that chap Talat who Tpap was talking to a couple of weeks ago ? If TRNC is not a party why is it that the UN and EU keep insisting on getting negotiations up and running again between the parties ? If the TRNC is not a party why is there a bloody great barrier running across the island ?

Who represents the TC community as a party ? The govt of the TRNC. You might not like it, I might not like it, but that is who the TC party is.

Learn the language, learn the distinction between de facto and de jure "before coming here to talk" as you so kindly put it.

Oh c'mon! You are such a numskull!

Who talks about "TRNC" as a party in any negotiations? Do the UN? Does the EU? Does the UK? Who, outside the Turkish newspapers and politicians? Show me one single official document by any of the above entities that make reference to a “TRNC!” Did you ever read a single UN resolution on Cyprus?

Talat is the recognised leader of the TC COMMUNITY, and it is under this capacity that he enters negotiations with the leader of the GC community, and not under any capacity of any sort of “president” of any "TRNC!" “TRNC" is an invalid entity, by UN resolutions! It cannot possibly constitute a party in any agreement! Even the Annan plan did not talk about "TRNC," as an existing entity -set aside a party in the then proposed agreement! Any agreement on Cyprus can only be between the two communities! The two communities do not constitute territorial entities, set aside state ones! Read the RoC constitution to understand what the terms "communities" mean, and who their representatives are or can be! I am afraid you are a numskull with zero knowledge on international law and affairs, to make such claims and even insist on top of them, when the facts are entirely different!

Kifeas if one day the TRNC were to be recognized I truly believe you would die from your jealously, hate, venom call it what you will but you have to realize we are here and we are not going anywhere we will fight our corner as well....if there is no hope with unification then where do you expect us to go? the moment the world realize that this problem is insolvable due to one reason or another but main down to GC intransigence then recognition will come and you will not be able to stop it , it will be to late. Your attitude if prevalent of those in the 1960s where they showed no flexibility of desire to share only to rule and dominate, well stuff you people you can keep looking at the flag on the mountain for all ? care for next zillion years I wont be around and nor will you. The quality of life and personal contentment are more important than being able to play a football match or have our post come direct, if this is the price for not having to endure the disgrace and unease of being forced to live in a GC state as a minority then many TCs are willing to pay a 1000 times more then the current isolation, that you have yet to realize and will be your down fall with trying to gt back what you so stupidly lost in the past.

The price VP, will be for Turkey and its 75 million people to remain isolated and forever waiting at EU's door, but even worst for Cyprus, it will mean no peace and more bloodshed for future generations! You and your motherland have no clue of what you are doing, and how unethical you are and have been!

You reduce us to minority status by force and then accuse us of being unethical. Hahahahhahaaaa! We are 30% share holding partners in Cyprus Ltd mate.....Give us back our rights and our status and stop all your legal jargon crap. You have conned the world by putting up a constitution that you had no intention of honouring in 1960 and have no intention of honouring now.[/code]

You are contributing 0% to the Republic of Cyprus Ltd at the moment so you get a divident of 1 cent, just for the merit. Start contributing and the divident will increase accordingly, dear partner.

[Pyrpolizer]

Kifeas,

I've no idea why you refuse to recognise the distinction between de facto and de jure . It is a basic legal distinction recognised by people around the world with no problem. You, however, seem to know better than all the courts, all the jurists and all the lawyers. Carry on in your de facto fantasy world if you wish.

De Jure - Republic of Cyprus
De Facto - Republic of Cyprus and TRNC

You don't like the acronym TRNC ? OK, put it in scare quotes, 'TRNC'. You don't like that either ? OK call it the Turkish Cypriot community ? Maybe you don't like that, then call it north Cyprus. You don't like that either ? OK, then call it Turkish occupied Cyprus. You don't like that ? The call it whatever you like ..... change the name a thousand times and a thousand times again and end up calling it X, the fact remains that (a) X is not a de jure state and (b) X is a de facto state.

De jure - Republic of Cyprus
De facto - Republic of Cyprus and X

Any agreement on Cyprus can only be between the two communities!

Maybe so, but the fact remains that somebody, some entity is speaking on behalf of the Turkish Cypriot community, and at the moment that is Talat and co. You may want to refer to him as 'self-styled leader/president of the Turkish Cypriot community' but regardless of how he styles himself, he's the one who Tpap, EU, UN etc are talking to. They too, de facto deal with him and his administration.

Sinn Fein was never de jure the voice of the IRA; Sinn Fein was never the de jure representatives of republicans or catholics in northern Ireland. But who was it that the British government fought ? Who was it that the British government tried to silence ? Who was it that the British government negotiated with ? Who was it that the British government came to a settlement with ? Sinn Fein, an unrecognised but de facto independence movement.
And the Israelis refused to recognise the PLO for thirty plus years and yet who was it they were negotiating with ? The PLO, an unrecognised but de facto independence movement.
And who is Tpap, the UN and the EU talking with here ? The administrative and executive officers of an unrecognised but de facto state. And if these unrecognised people are so unimportant and so trivial - that is they're illegal - why the hell are Tpap, the UN and EU not only taking to them but giving them money, technical support, opening borders etc ? Seems a bizarre thing to do for an entity which according to your book of fiction does not exist.


The de jure- de facto distinction is a fairly simple concept, but for some reason you - who don't hesitate to judge that I am 'a numskull with zero knowledge on international law and affairs' - just don't get it.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

The occupied areas is not even a state by the standards of most of definitions. It is an administration it has an administrative structure and is almost fully subordinate to Turkey. So i am very sorry but I don't even accept your term of "de-facto" state.

I also disagree that the EU is dealing with this entity as de facto state. None of the EU aid goes to the institutions of that "state" it goes to people and contractors who undertake the excecution of projects.And it is monitored by EU representatives. The green line trade monitoring was also assigned to an NGO and EU experts who were sent here for this specific job..
It is true that when negotiating or dealing with representatives of the TC community both the EU the UN and the RoC do it with people who were elected under the trnc administration system, this however is not enough to even make it a de facto state. Even terrorist organisations, even unions, even liberation fighters, appoint leaders through an internal processes.

You are confusing the fact that these processes happen in a self declared "state" with the fact that they are just administrative processes that exist in ANY ENTITY even a students union. Then you go ahead saying " this proves a de facto state". All it proves is nothing than an administrative structure....

[CopperLine]

Pyropolizer,
Fine, you say that TRNC doesn't fulfil the criteria of a state but that it just about makes it to the level of administration, and on that score you say it isn't a state. You're entitled to that view and assessment. Unfortunately that criteria is not the criteria by which international law defines a de jure sate, and international law does not (cannot) seek to define a de facto state. The test of a de facto state is not a legal one but a practical one. Thus, for example, there is an infrastructure of tax gathering, there is an apparatus of law and order, there is an administration of borders, there is the organisation of education and health service provision and so on. All of these things are practical state-like activities. You might wish to call them 'administration', as if this is a lower grade activity than full and proper state-like activity, so be it. We needn't be too fussy about names, but we know that students' unions, trade unions, and terrorist organisations and so on, do not have or claim to organise the panoply of activities that states do (hence the Montevideo criteria).

but I don't even accept your term of "de-facto" state.

To repeat, this is not my term. This is a standard term used in law and social sciences and philosophy. If you are saying that 'de facto' is not a description of the TRNC/X then that's another matter, which, in my assessment I'd disagree with you.

The occupied areas is not even a state by the standards of most of definitions. It is an administration it has an administrative structure and is almost fully subordinate to Turkey.

I partly agree with you - the part that says "is almost fully subordinate to Turkey." Economic policy, monetary policy, security policy, even education policy ... are all wholly or increasingly determined from Ankara. Agreed. The problem, though, still remains that there are a large number of examples in which sovereign and independent states are also wholly or heavily dependent on another state for their very continuance.

The part I disagree with you - the part that says "The occupied areas is not even a state by the standards of most of definitions" - is mistaken in international law. If you are interested, look at the Manchukuo case in the 1930s, look at Taiwan from the 1950s onwards, look at Cambodia in the 1980s, look at the PLO and the PA from the late 1980s onwards, and many more.

Just one complaint to you : You wrote in reply to me, "Then you go ahead saying " this proves a de facto state"." You put that last phrase in quotation marks as if you were quoting my words. But those aren't my words at all. I didn't use the phrase "this proves", in fact I never use the phrase 'this proves ...' Why ? Because there is always doubt, there is always debate; scientific endeavour is not about closing down questions, it is about opening up new questions.

[zan]

Kifeas,
If TRNC is not a party then who was that chap Talat who Tpap was talking to a couple of weeks ago ? If TRNC is not a party why is it that the UN and EU keep insisting on getting negotiations up and running again between the parties ? If the TRNC is not a party why is there a bloody great barrier running across the island ?

Who represents the TC community as a party ? The govt of the TRNC. You might not like it, I might not like it, but that is who the TC party is.

Learn the language, learn the distinction between de facto and de jure "before coming here to talk" as you so kindly put it.

Oh c'mon! You are such a numskull!

Who talks about "TRNC" as a party in any negotiations? Do the UN? Does the EU? Does the UK? Who, outside the Turkish newspapers and politicians? Show me one single official document by any of the above entities that make reference to a “TRNC!” Did you ever read a single UN resolution on Cyprus?

Talat is the recognised leader of the TC COMMUNITY, and it is under this capacity that he enters negotiations with the leader of the GC community, and not under any capacity of any sort of “president” of any "TRNC!" “TRNC" is an invalid entity, by UN resolutions! It cannot possibly constitute a party in any agreement! Even the Annan plan did not talk about "TRNC," as an existing entity -set aside a party in the then proposed agreement! Any agreement on Cyprus can only be between the two communities! The two communities do not constitute territorial entities, set aside state ones! Read the RoC constitution to understand what the terms "communities" mean, and who their representatives are or can be! I am afraid you are a numskull with zero knowledge on international law and affairs, to make such claims and even insist on top of them, when the facts are entirely different!

Kifeas if one day the TRNC were to be recognized I truly believe you would die from your jealously, hate, venom call it what you will but you have to realize we are here and we are not going anywhere we will fight our corner as well....if there is no hope with unification then where do you expect us to go? the moment the world realize that this problem is insolvable due to one reason or another but main down to GC intransigence then recognition will come and you will not be able to stop it , it will be to late. Your attitude if prevalent of those in the 1960s where they showed no flexibility of desire to share only to rule and dominate, well stuff you people you can keep looking at the flag on the mountain for all ? care for next zillion years I wont be around and nor will you. The quality of life and personal contentment are more important than being able to play a football match or have our post come direct, if this is the price for not having to endure the disgrace and unease of being forced to live in a GC state as a minority then many TCs are willing to pay a 1000 times more then the current isolation, that you have yet to realize and will be your down fall with trying to gt back what you so stupidly lost in the past.

The price VP, will be for Turkey and its 75 million people to remain isolated and forever waiting at EU's door, but even worst for Cyprus, it will mean no peace and more bloodshed for future generations! You and your motherland have no clue of what you are doing, and how unethical you are and have been!

You reduce us to minority status by force and then accuse us of being unethical. Hahahahhahaaaa! We are 30% share holding partners in Cyprus Ltd mate.....Give us back our rights and our status and stop all your legal jargon crap. You have conned the world by putting up a constitution that you had no intention of honouring in 1960 and have no intention of honouring now.[/code]

You are contributing 0% to the Republic of Cyprus Ltd at the moment so you get a divident of 1 cent, just for the merit. Start contributing and the divident will increase accordingly, dear partner.

we are not allowed to under our own rights.........

[Kifeas]

Kifeas,

I've no idea why you refuse to recognise the distinction between de facto and de jure . It is a basic legal distinction recognised by people around the world with no problem. You, however, seem to know better than all the courts, all the jurists and all the lawyers. Carry on in your de facto fantasy world if you wish.

De Jure - Republic of Cyprus
De Facto - Republic of Cyprus and TRNC

You don't like the acronym TRNC ? OK, put it in scare quotes, 'TRNC'. You don't like that either ? OK call it the Turkish Cypriot community ? Maybe you don't like that, then call it north Cyprus. You don't like that either ? OK, then call it Turkish occupied Cyprus. You don't like that ? The call it whatever you like ..... change the name a thousand times and a thousand times again and end up calling it X, the fact remains that (a) X is not a de jure state and (b) X is a de facto state.

De jure - Republic of Cyprus
De facto - Republic of Cyprus and X

Any agreement on Cyprus can only be between the two communities!

Maybe so, but the fact remains that somebody, some entity is speaking on behalf of the Turkish Cypriot community, and at the moment that is Talat and co. You may want to refer to him as 'self-styled leader/president of the Turkish Cypriot community' but regardless of how he styles himself, he's the one who Tpap, EU, UN etc are talking to. They too, de facto deal with him and his administration.

Sinn Fein was never de jure the voice of the IRA; Sinn Fein was never the de jure representatives of republicans or catholics in northern Ireland. But who was it that the British government fought ? Who was it that the British government tried to silence ? Who was it that the British government negotiated with ? Who was it that the British government came to a settlement with ? Sinn Fein, an unrecognised but de facto independence movement.
And the Israelis refused to recognise the PLO for thirty plus years and yet who was it they were negotiating with ? The PLO, an unrecognised but de facto independence movement.
And who is Tpap, the UN and the EU talking with here ? The administrative and executive officers of an unrecognised but de facto state. And if these unrecognised people are so unimportant and so trivial - that is they're illegal - why the hell are Tpap, the UN and EU not only taking to them but giving them money, technical support, opening borders etc ? Seems a bizarre thing to do for an entity which according to your book of fiction does not exist.


The de jure- de facto distinction is a fairly simple concept, but for some reason you - who don't hesitate to judge that I am 'a numskull with zero knowledge on international law and affairs' - just don't get it.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

Copper, you give the impression of someone who is clueless in relation to the legal parameters of the Cyprus issue! The TC community has been acknowledged as an entity already in the 1960 constitution! It is even organised under a communal council whose chairman is simultaneously the elected vice-president of the RoC (when TCs used to participate in the RoC) and the official leader of the TC community! The TC community is not a territorial entity, nor is it a state! Neither the GC community is such! All negotiations in Cyprus since the 60's were conducted between the leaders of the two community entities, and they continued to be conducted on this basis up to this date! It is not the RoC vs. the "TRNC" that negotiate for a solution on the political aspects of the Cyprus issue, but the two communities as two (non- territorially based) entities! Territorially, Cyprus is still one entity, for there has not been any agreement yet to regard it as more than one entity! Legally, the RoC is still a bi-communal entity, and it is not a GC state! This is not what I say! This is what all international organisations and third countries accept, with the exception of Turkey, to be the political and legal realities and facts in Cyprus!

De facto, as per ECHR court decisions, the north is under Turkish occupation, and the regime under the name “TRNC” is a puppet and a subordinate one to Turkey! It is imposed by Turkey, the occupying force! It is not a de facto state, for without Turkey’s occupation, imposition and financial maintenance, it wouldn’t exist, neither de facto nor de jure! The only de facto situation is that of the Turkish occupation of an area de jure belonging and is under the jurisdiction of the RoC!

You are free to adopt the Turkish thesis, however, do not complain when we tell you that you are here to make disguised propaganda and you stealthy try to pass around and “sell” the Turkish positions and thesis on Cyprus!