Cyprus-Forum.com

[Viewpoint]

humanist

Kikapu, to be honest I don't think VP knows what he is arguing for.

If you do not know by now, that means you are being bloody minded yet you later on contradict yourself and say I am a partionist, which is right as I do not believe GCs and TCs will ever bridge the widening chasm to agree unification.

He hardly ever presents examples of the equality he wants,

Equality where in partition? isnt it pretty obvious?

he hardly ever criticises the Talat administration,

I criticized the Ledra ST Bridge decision and that we shoudl never have met Papadop so close to an election as it was bait to boost his votes.

he a strong supporter of Turkey

Never hide that fact, you may see them as the agressor you have every right but I also have the right to thank them for saving our lives when our compatirots were more concerned about giving Cyprus and us to Greece.

sometimes he makes reference to a BBF solution most of the time he argues for partition.

Correct

He is fears are existential and by his own admission on one to one level there is no issues between Cypriots.

Individual interation is one thing but having GCs control your future is another can you see the difference?

I fail to see then what the issues he presents are based on.

The last 47 years.

One of the fairest political power sharing options exists already 1960's constitution.

Its the GCs who claimed they were forced to sign it and that it is unfair and gives the TCs to many rights, arent you aware fo these facts? ask Piratis.

At the same time the RoC has been negligent in its assistance to the implementation of this otption. Having said that I can see why. because you will have trnc state in the north under current status quo and perhaps the same shit occuring again by those TC's who choose to cross the divide and live in the RoC under the 1960's constitution.

The "RoC" will never make this offer as they would have to share and that is not in their nature. Why do they not declare to the world that they are will to welcome the TC leadership with open arms back to the 1960 agreements?? if they disolve the TRNC, make it public papadop I dare you. put it to referendum. he doesnt have the balls.

One of the fairest political power sharing options exists already 1960's constitution.

Perhaps the RoC needs to rewrite the 1960's consitution if it can to make it a trully democratic

Arent you contradicting yourself yet again?

Perhaps the RoC needs to rewrite the 1960's consitution if it can to make it a trully democratic where one person = one vote, maintain the status quo and provide financial support to all refugees in rebuilding their lives and that means refugees of Limassol and Paphos and Larnaca and surounding villages. As well as special supports for those Cypriots of turkish speaking background who are not refugees as they owned property in the north prior to 1974.

Further to that and a topic that is very sensitive, important and crucial in the whole process, the RoC needs to take responsibility for the people of Tochni and needs to provide property for them in the North using Churh or state land. The emotional and physical scars of that attrocity cannot be pushed under the carpet and those people need to be accommodated in a safe envirnmoemmnt and that place is nowhere in the free areas of Cyprus. This initiative needs to begin now, because whetehr we kike it involved there is going to be a unification of some sort in the next ten years because it is now out of the hands of the Cypriot people and good will gestures need to begin now. It will not break the RoC budget to re-accommodate a couple of hundret people. It is the only case that I support land exchange.

fat chance why should they, they have 90% of hat they want. You are a dreamer the GC administration wouldnt do anthing that could kick start drawing the communities together as they would have to treat us as equals and this is still out of the question for the majority of GCs who view us as a minority and not an equal partner.

[/quote]

[Kikapu]

Kikapu

Humanist,

Now you are talking about special laws to protect the minorities with special protections. But VP does not want minority rights for the TC's or special laws to protect minorities, because he wants to be equal to the GC's, so therefore you cannot treat the TC's as minorities, which means no special laws needed, because VP would refuse them.

Kikapu, to be honest I don't think VP knows what he is arguing for. .

Humanist, forget trying to figure what VP and his other "Viewpoint" partners, as their Avatar suggests want. All they doing is spreading poison with their talks but in all reality, what they doing is exposing themselves to the world on how much hate they posses. The same world they want to convince to give them a Partition, they in fact hurting their cause with their vile of poison. I say let them keep going and even suggest they import more lunatics like Eric dayi. Reasonable people likes reasonable ideas and people to find a solution. When the rest of the world hear these people spewing poison all over the place, they are seen as Radicals and more than likely, associate them in the same group as the fundamentalist from the middle east.

Good luck getting the world to lift any isolation or give recognition to the "TRNC". TC's cannot be thankful to the likes of VP and Eric Dayi with their daily routine of blah, blah, blah and blah. As I said, forget VP and his partners.

[humanist]

VP I am contradicting myself, I am a human being. I am happy to accept responsibility for my contradictions and listen to other points of view. Sometimes based on that I change my view.


VP I know you keep saying you want equality however you do not say how you want this to llook like. Makes it very difficult for me to understand. I need clear examples for example one person= one vote

I fail to see how partition is fair on the rest of the Cypriot population. Who for 33 years have been denied not only their rights to their homes but their homeland.

I fail to see how your perpetual discrimination of other minority groups represents equality.

Yes you have told e before you criticised Ledra opening. Well done on your support.

Yes I do see Turkey as the agressor and the manager of the north and many other things.

Once again I fail to see how in a Cyprus in 2007 with EU membership and esecially on with 1960's constitution and GC is making decisions on your future, and there lies the problem. As I have mentioned above if all Cypriots perceived each other as such then only Cypriots would be makig decisions for Cypriots. And that is where I believe we can no longer converse VP without repeating and annoying each other (you and I that is). You want to separate yourself from me and I want you and I to feel one Cypriot voice.

To use your own words there have been peace on Cyprus for the pst 33 years. No basis for irational fears. infact there was peace on Cypreus for nearly 500 years other than a sad periso in our history. Namely 50-60's. As for you I do not think you have grounds.

Look at your views on 1960's constitution, you say it would give TC's too many rights and the RoC does not want it. Do you want it VP? If that were the case would you live in a Cyprus with the 1960's constitution. Lets see who contradicts themselves now.

Your sentence about the 1960's constitution referendum. VP I believe that is the Talat administration trully wants that an indicates that the RoC will buy it. Once again I would welcome a referendum on it and I will even come to Cyprus to vote for it. Perhaps a letter to Papadopoulos asking him of that may be a great initiative on your part. By the way my friend I tell you this if it goes to referendum and GC's vote NO to that with your welcoming I would be more than happy to relinquish my Cypriot citizenship and take up trnc membership and vow to God that I will fight the battle for aprtition because it will be a clear indication to me that yes the RoC is a racist nation and I would not wish to be art of it.

My argument about re-writing the 1960's constitution is based on the current status quo. As things stand right now. I do not mean that in case of Unification based only on the fact that I am sensitive of Cypriots of Turkish speaking background and their feeling to be respected as equal partners. And whilst there is a divisio on the Island and a them and us perspective then there is a perceived enemy. As such neiter side will be doing anything to assist the enemy. This is not my point of view but a perception of how enemies may work.

VP you are a minority in Cyprus there is no question about that. However it does not mean you cannot have equal rights and equal opportunities. However if you stopped seeing you are TC and GC's stopped seeing they are GC and only saw Cypriot then we are all equal. Point is majority / minority is term used to describe numerical definitions. in which case you are a minority, but does not mean that you or any other minority groups should have less equality or rights to anything in Cyprus.

We have had this discussion before and my point stands if you do not accept minority status, unless you satrt shooting GC's then you will not have numerical equality. I wish to reiterate my point again minority does not equate to inequality. I am not sure what sort of education you have had but I hope that you can undertsand the difference I am trying to make here in relation to majority/ minority and equality.

[utu]

VP you are a minority in Cyprus there is no question about that. However it does not mean you cannot have equal rights and equal opportunities. However if you stopped seeing you are TC and GC's stopped seeing they are GC and only saw Cypriot then we are all equal. Point is majority / minority is term used to describe numerical definitions. in which case you are a minority, but does not mean that you or any other minority groups should have less equality or rights to anything in Cyprus.

Humanist, do you think that the Greek Cypriots would be able to think of their Turkish Cypriot brethern as equals? Given the historical animosities that have always existed between the two peoples, idealism of this type may not hold up to these types of biases.

[Nikitas]

UTU

This "equal"thing is beginning to assume mystical stature. Equal of course we are, in the sense of one man/woman one vote and equal rights and opportunities for all citizens. But here we have something more than that. So we go to some formula like the one in the Annan plan, where land and power are distribute between the two communities along arbitrary proportions- ie 70-30 and not 82-18 which should be the proportion if it were based on population ratios. In addition to that there is the rotating presidency which conceivably can let the half of the 18 per cent vote elect a president for the whole. So the equality is something of an artifice and a little theoretical.

Kikapu in another thread proposed a solution along the lines of the US federal system. It helps to remember that though two states, like California and Wyoming, are equal and each has two senators, their disparity in population is reflected in the House of Representatives where California with 80 million has more seats than Wyoming with one million. There is no doubt that citizens in California and Wyoming are equal, but are California and Wyoming as states of the Union equal in the legislative process? So what do you mean by equal UTU? Can you give specific examples from some other functioning country so we have a yardstick for comparison?

On a more realistic basis, small countries like Cyprus where family ties are strong and manifest themselves in various ways, and affect vital matters such as employment, equality of opportunity is probably more important than theoretical equality on a political basis. Equality of opportunity is also important within each community, probably more so, to ensure that economic opportunity goes to those that really have the right qualifications and not simply the right family connections. Cypriots will know what I mean.

[Bananiot]

Pyrpolyser, is Dr Economou your political friend too. I take pride in being friends with both the Economou brothers. We are soul mates and close political friends. For your information the authorities in the north have not compensated for the burned car (yet).

Kikapu, I'll come back to your comment later, I am in a bit of a rush at the moment.

[humanist]

Iceman ....... you are right I do not consider Kikapu and Birk TC's I consider them as Cypriots with ever right and opportunity as I have in a developing Cyprus.

[Viewpoint]

humanist

VP I am contradicting myself, I am a human being. I am happy to accept responsibility for my contradictions and listen to other points of view. Sometimes based on that I change my view.

Thank you, can get a bit confusing when I'm trying to understand exactly what you are trying to say.

VP I know you keep saying you want equality however you do not say how you want this to look like. Makes it very difficult for me to understand. I need clear examples for example one person= one vote

Equality equals a say in my own future and that entails something along the lines of Kifeas out forward where on issues which may effect TCs negatively my community has the right to say no. Eg on certain key issues a voting ratio whereby a certain number of TC votes are necessary to pass law or take decisions.
If GCs do not foresee trying to pas such laws then why is this such a problem, their argument makes me uneasy to an extent of wanting even further safeguards to ensure they may not take actions against my will.

I fail to see how partition is fair on the rest of the Cypriot population. Who for 33 years have been denied not only their rights to their homes but their homeland

Why do you feel we choose partition, its purely based on our dark history and the policies and arguments put forward by GCs in 2007 trying to keep their GC state and apply pressure on us via isolation to accept their demands to become a minority without our community rights in a united Cyprus.

I fail to see how your perpetual discrimination of other minority groups represents equality.

You keep referring back to this issue, why? the minorities will benefit just like you and I when a comprehensive solution is found, we do not view them any differently from yourselves as they sided with you guys when asked which side they prefer.

Yes you have told e before you criticised Ledra opening. Well done on your support.

We to make mistakes and do not always see eye to eye with our leaders this is nothing new.

Yes I do see Turkey as the agressor and the manager of the north and many other things.

You can do as they stopped you from reaching your goals and continue to stop you from taking control of the whole island.

Once again I fail to see how in a Cyprus in 2007 with EU membership and esecially on with 1960's constitution and GC is making decisions on your future, and there lies the problem. As I have mentioned above if all Cypriots perceived each other as such then only Cypriots would be makig decisions for Cypriots. And that is where I believe we can no longer converse VP without repeating and annoying each other (you and I that is). You want to separate yourself from me and I want you and I to feel one Cypriot voice.

This we are all Cypriots does not cut water with the majority of TCs as that opportunity was missed in 1963, it only perpetuates a feeling of being absorbed by GCs and works negatively as we have never been made to feel part of the "RoC" so initially safeguards have to be put in place to ensure GCs do not push us to side and make all the decisions concerning our future.

To use your own words there have been peace on Cyprus for the pst 33 years. No basis for irational fears. infact there was peace on Cypreus for nearly 500 years other than a sad periso in our history. Namely 50-60's. As for you I do not think you have grounds.

Why is that? could it have anything to do with Turkish army? without who I and many TCs feel it would be mayhem and dangerous for TCs.

Your sentence about the 1960's constitution referendum. VP I believe that is the Talat administration trully wants that an indicates that the RoC will buy it. Once again I would welcome a referendum on it and I will even come to Cyprus to vote for it. Perhaps a letter to Papadopoulos asking him of that may be a great initiative on your part. By the way my friend I tell you this if it goes to referendum and GC's vote NO to that with your welcoming I would be more than happy to relinquish my Cypriot citizenship and take up trnc membership and vow to God that I will fight the battle for aprtition because it will be a clear indication to me that yes the RoC is a racist nation and I would not wish to be art of it.

Obviously you do not know your community well as they would never offer such a deal they have 90% of what they require and if the use the EU osmosis card they feel they will get the remaining 10%. Why don't you wright to your leaders and ask them to make an official offer as you state in the above paragraph and see how far you will get.

My argument about re-writing the 1960's constitution is based on the current status quo. As things stand right now. I do not mean that in case of Unification based only on the fact that I am sensitive of Cypriots of Turkish speaking background and their feeling to be respected as equal partners. And whilst there is a divisio on the Island and a them and us perspective then there is a perceived enemy. As such neiter side will be doing anything to assist the enemy. This is not my point of view but a perception of how enemies may work.

I agree and believe the 1960 agreements are not sufficient to sustain a new united Cyprus that's why we need something like the AP plan a more comprehensive agreement which defines exactly where we stand in a new structure.

VP you are a minority in Cyprus there is no question about that. However it does not mean you cannot have equal rights and equal opportunities. However if you stopped seeing you are TC and GC's stopped seeing they are GC and only saw Cypriot then we are all equal. Point is majority / minority is term used to describe numerical definitions. in which case you are a minority, but does not mean that you or any other minority groups should have less equality or rights to anything in Cyprus

Equal rights as individuals and equal right as communities are 2 different things, my height (minority) should not make me any less a partner in a new formation as we should have political equality of the 2 communities as put forward by the UN .

We have had this discussion before and my point stands if you do not accept minority status, unless you satrt shooting GC's then you will not have numerical equality. I wish to reiterate my point again minority does not equate to inequality. I am not sure what sort of education you have had but I hope that you can undertsand the difference I am trying to make here in relation to majority/ minority and equality.

Numerical equality is not what I am after I want community equality where I am not exposed to the mercy and whim of GCs where I can stop any laws or decision effecting my community negatively eg enosis, no Trade with Turkey etc....