Cyprus-Forum.com

[phoenix]

Are the Gcs using recognition as a tool to make us accept their demands, what do TCs really lack that the GCs have, materially? Is the trade off between recognition and living in a GC state against what we have today and can make much better if stick together really worth it? We TCs can work hard at putting our viewpoint accross to the rest of the world which they will understand, as we do this they will take measures to relax the GC strangle hold called isolation.

TCs take note of whats being out before by Gcs on this forum can you imagine this mentality in a GC where you are a minority with GC taking decisions on your behalf and influencing your future, shudder at the the thought.

Viewpoint:

You have raised a VERY interesting point and I need you to clarify certain issues.
Clearly the isolation you feel is a symptom of the lack of Recognition.

I've asked you throughout this thread to tell me WHY you have been refused world-wide Recognition.
You are being flippant if you do not address this first. Because therein may lie your answer.

If you have good and valid, justifiable reasons for being denied Recognition . . ALL you TCs have to do is correct those deficiencies and PERHAPS then you may receive the Recognition that deep in your submerged soul you know you cannot survive long-term as a state, without.

And then that would be just great for you TCs!

Your consciences will be clear . . and you'll get recognition for your Presently-Pseudo TRNC. I would rejoice for you and move on.

But I have no fear that Recognition will EVER come to the pseudo-state of yours. Because I know those issues you are running away from are TOO great and numerous and they cannot be ignored.

I'll hazard a guess as to WHY you are REFUSED Recognition:

The policies pursued by Turkey in the occupied area since its invasion of Cyprus constitutes the FIRST case of ethnic cleansing in post-second World War Europe.

It is for this fundamental reason that you are refused any Recognition.

And OK maybe GCs did some bad things . . but they were in defence of their country, not an uncalled for MAJOR offensive.

Whats more, the GCs NEVER systematically raped your women and killed your children . . . this was the policy of the Turkish Army. They showed themselves to still uphold BARBARISM . . . even if some may some "All's fair in .... etc. But I agree these crimes cannot be sadly, undone!

HOWEVER the crime of ethnic cleansing can still be reversed.

Address the issue of ETHNIC cleansing by removing the Turks allowing the refugees back to their homes and then the TCs WILL have Recognition as part of a fine and respected country . . the RoC.

[Viewpoint]

Can everyone see the trend here? GCs try to push forward recognition as if without it we cant survive and that we should accept GC demands. Isn't the quality of life more important than recognition. Look at Romania and Moldova these are recognized countries one is even in the EU but the standard of living there is appalling. TCs have to realize that OK recognition would be great but what we have today is not far off and if we work hard to get our viewpoint accross to get some of the isolations lifted we would do a much better job than wasting our time trying to work out a solution with Gcs who are insincere and displayed this when the only real opportunity we had was put on the table but rejected by GCs. Let them run around and explain themselves, why they rejected a UN brokered plan backed by the international community, let them put forward new proposals, we were the ones who said yes to the international community and still got punished, the EU has realized their wrong doings and over time this will intensify as they to will have to deal with arrogant despot GCs over and over again who really display no signs of compromise.

I bet YOU said NO !

Wrong..............

[CopperLine]

Militiades,
You make me laugh .. or do I mean weep ?

Yes some - even many - of those countries have been invaded and had foreign troops based in them, including semi-permanently. Your point is what ? No one else has suffered like Cyprus has suffered ? I suggest that you take a look outside your goldfish bowl every now and again.

And what has happened in and to Cyprus is far from unique in modern history. The sooner you realise that the sooner you'll appreciate that perhaps some of the means by which peace and reconciliation was achieved in other similar examples across the world might prove instructive to Cyprus.

[miltiades]

Militiades,
You make me laugh .. or do I mean weep ?

Yes some - even many - of those countries have been invaded and had foreign troops based in them, including semi-permanently. Your point is what ? No one else has suffered like Cyprus has suffered ? I suggest that you take a look outside your goldfish bowl every now and again.

And what has happened in and to Cyprus is far from unique in modern history. The sooner you realise that the sooner you'll appreciate that perhaps some of the means by which peace and reconciliation was achieved in other similar examples across the world might prove instructive to Cyprus.

You are dismissing the plight of some 200 thousand Cypriots expelled from their ancestral homes by telling them , dont worry guys you are not the only ones. Britain also had its fair share of ethnic cleansing !!
The same research no doubt that led you to post that the Cuban boat people were no different to the Brits leaving Britain. Logically you luck perception. Cry yes because you capabilities in making a reasonable analogy are laughable.
Im also still waiting for your definition of GDP pe capita. Its not indicative you said of purchasing power. !!As a qualified Accountant I find this comment also laughable.

[zan]

Are the Gcs using recognition as a tool to make us accept their demands, what do TCs really lack that the GCs have, materially? Is the trade off between recognition and living in a GC state against what we have today and can make much better if stick together really worth it? We TCs can work hard at putting our viewpoint accross to the rest of the world which they will understand, as we do this they will take measures to relax the GC strangle hold called isolation.

TCs take note of whats being out before by Gcs on this forum can you imagine this mentality in a GC where you are a minority with GC taking decisions on your behalf and influencing your future, shudder at the the thought.

Viewpoint:

You have raised a VERY interesting point and I need you to clarify certain issues.
Clearly the isolation you feel is a symptom of the lack of Recognition.

I've asked you throughout this thread to tell me WHY you have been refused world-wide Recognition.
You are being flippant if you do not address this first. Because therein may lie your answer.

If you have good and valid, justifiable reasons for being denied Recognition . . ALL you TCs have to do is correct those deficiencies and PERHAPS then you may receive the Recognition that deep in your submerged soul you know you cannot survive long-term as a state, without.

And then that would be just great for you TCs!

Your consciences will be clear . . and you'll get recognition for your Presently-Pseudo TRNC. I would rejoice for you and move on.

But I have no fear that Recognition will EVER come to the pseudo-state of yours. Because I know those issues you are running away from are TOO great and numerous and they cannot be ignored.

I'll hazard a guess as to WHY you are REFUSED Recognition:

The policies pursued by Turkey in the occupied area since its invasion of Cyprus constitutes the FIRST case of ethnic cleansing in post-second World War Europe.

It is for this fundamental reason that you are refused any Recognition.

And OK maybe GCs did some bad things . . but they were in defence of their country, not an uncalled for MAJOR offensive.

Whats more, the GCs NEVER systematically raped your women and killed your children . . . this was the policy of the Turkish Army. They showed themselves to still uphold BARBARISM . . . even if some may some "All's fair in .... etc. But I agree these crimes cannot be sadly, undone!

HOWEVER the crime of ethnic cleansing can still be reversed.

Address the issue of ETHNIC cleansing by removing the Turks allowing the refugees back to their homes and then the TCs WILL have Recognition as part of a fine and respected country . . the RoC.

If you are blinkered and wish not to see the very many answers you have had to this question then you will have to wait for the next intelligent discussion to hear it again...There should be one coming your way soon......Did you read the Akritas Plan as I recommended by the way...Perhaps then you can join in at the level at which the subject is being discussed......Phobias can be overcome you know...Just takes a little bit of courage and a reality check....

[Pyrpolizer]

Militiades,
You make me laugh .. or do I mean weep ?

Yes some - even many - of those countries have been invaded and had foreign troops based in them, including semi-permanently. Your point is what ? No one else has suffered like Cyprus has suffered ? I suggest that you take a look outside your goldfish bowl every now and again.

And what has happened in and to Cyprus is far from unique in modern history. The sooner you realise that the sooner you'll appreciate that perhaps some of the means by which peace and reconciliation was achieved in other similar examples across the world might prove instructive to Cyprus.

CopperLine,

While we all know there have been states founded exclussively on ethnic cleansing starting from pre-historic times, the human race has advanced. It created the United Nations, it set the countries border lines etc etc.

Ethnic cleansing IS NOT AN ACCEPTABLE practice today because it drives humanity back at least 300 years . There is a world balance today that if we allow practices of ethnic cleansing and establishing of new countries like that, would DESTROY ALL the world balance and carry us back to the the law of the jungle.

Like many people said already, what happened in Cyprus in 1974 was the most recent event in the whole planet of ethnic cleansing. I don't think it will ever let pass. There was a very well established state in Cyprus from prehistoric times. Even when the Ottomans arrived here 400+ years ago they have not performed such a wide range of ethnic cleansing as that of Turkey's invasion in 1974. What happened in Cyprus in 1974 has NEVER happened before in this place. No matter if it might have happened in USA or Australia etc, 300 years ago, the GCs in 1974 ALREADY HAD their own state consciousness unlike the aboriginals who had absolutely no state consciousness and thought everything belonged to everybody.

There is a huge difference in establishing "acceptable" modern states in primitive societies-even through some kind of ethnic cleansing- as it happened some centuries ago in America, with what happened in Cyprus in 1974

[Kikapu]

Are the Gcs using recognition as a tool to make us accept their demands, what do TCs really lack that the GCs have, materially? Is the trade off between recognition and living in a GC state against what we have today and can make much better if stick together really worth it? We TCs can work hard at putting our viewpoint accross to the rest of the world which they will understand, as we do this they will take measures to relax the GC strangle hold called isolation.
.

Now look who's being disingenuous. You have been crying about Recognition since 1983 and the only one you have gotten is from Turkey, which you hold onto very dearly. Now after knocking on every door to open recognition to you, which upon answering the door and they see who is standing in the door way, it is immediately shut on your face again. So I suppose reality must be setting in with you that Recognition is not coming your way, so why not accept it and say, "who the hell needs Recognition anyway". It is just like an old man who can't get it up anymore so he says, "Who the hell needs sex anyway" and then goes on to say "sex is over rated if you ask me". Never mind he was chasing every skirt that was around when he was younger, much like you have been chasing every possible Recognition Door to be opened for you. Then again, keeping land that belongs to others is more important than living in a "Honest Society". You got your "Bounty" so the hell with the future generation of TC's who will be forced to live their lives just like "Oliver Twist" who will not have control of their own destiny in a True Democratic country but instead will be at the mercy of others to throw a bone at them when they ask "Can I have some more, please Sir".

[Pyrpolizer]

Oh, now back to VP who tries to pass the idea to the Tcs that recognition is just a state of mind, it will not change much.

My dear recognition does not mean just "i see you, i agree you exist". It means i also ACCEPT you as legally equal.
I guarantee you you would already have been recognized if either a)Your occupied area was not more than 18% or b)You were the owners of the land on which the pseudo is sitting.

Without recognition you are constantly held backwards and this is the price you pay day in day out for your illegalities. You may be having a GNP of 10,000 dollars and feel happy about it, but with recognition you would have a GNP of 21,000 as the free areas already have. Therefore you are paying 11,000 per year for your illegalities.

[phoenix]

Are the Gcs using recognition as a tool to make us accept their demands, what do TCs really lack that the GCs have, materially? Is the trade off between recognition and living in a GC state against what we have today and can make much better if stick together really worth it? We TCs can work hard at putting our viewpoint accross to the rest of the world which they will understand, as we do this they will take measures to relax the GC strangle hold called isolation.
.

Now look who's being disingenuous. You have been crying about Recognition since 1983 and the only one you have gotten is from Turkey, which you hold onto very dearly. Now after knocking on every door to open recognition to you, which upon answering the door and they see who is standing in the door way, it is immediately shut on your face again. So I suppose reality must be setting in with you that Recognition is not coming your way, so why not accept it and say, "who the hell needs Recognition anyway". It is just like an old man who can't get it up anymore so he says, "Who the hell needs sex anyway" and then goes on to say "sex is over rated if you ask me". Never mind he was chasing every skirt that was around when he was younger, much like you have been chasing every possible Recognition Door to be opened for you. Then again, keeping land that belongs to others is more important than living in a "Honest Society". You got your "Bounty" so the hell with the future generation of TC's who will be forced to live their lives just like "Oliver Twist" who will not have control of their own destiny in a True Democratic country but instead will be at the mercy of others to throw a bone at them when they ask "Can I have some more, please Sir".

Kikapu

Are you suggesting the Pseudo-TRNC needs a good dose of Viagra?

[Kikapu]

Are the Gcs using recognition as a tool to make us accept their demands, what do TCs really lack that the GCs have, materially? Is the trade off between recognition and living in a GC state against what we have today and can make much better if stick together really worth it? We TCs can work hard at putting our viewpoint accross to the rest of the world which they will understand, as we do this they will take measures to relax the GC strangle hold called isolation.
.

Now look who's being disingenuous. You have been crying about Recognition since 1983 and the only one you have gotten is from Turkey, which you hold onto very dearly. Now after knocking on every door to open recognition to you, which upon answering the door and they see who is standing in the door way, it is immediately shut on your face again. So I suppose reality must be setting in with you that Recognition is not coming your way, so why not accept it and say, "who the hell needs Recognition anyway". It is just like an old man who can't get it up anymore so he says, "Who the hell needs sex anyway" and then goes on to say "sex is over rated if you ask me". Never mind he was chasing every skirt that was around when he was younger, much like you have been chasing every possible Recognition Door to be opened for you. Then again, keeping land that belongs to others is more important than living in a "Honest Society". You got your "Bounty" so the hell with the future generation of TC's who will be forced to live their lives just like "Oliver Twist" who will not have control of their own destiny in a True Democratic country but instead will be at the mercy of others to throw a bone at them when they ask "Can I have some more, please Sir".

Kikapu

Are you suggesting the Pseudo-TRNC needs a good dose of Viagra?

Now, why didn't I think of that.??