Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Pyropolizer,
Your observation is appreciated. Thanks. How to remedy ?

I don't know CopperLine. It is difficult for everyone to change the way he writes.
Perhaps you can try using shorter sentences...

[Pyrpolizer]

The main problems with proposals to 'withdraw troops' are that (i) there is great reluctance to be first mover, (ii) it doesn't necessarily lead to feeling more secure, and (iii) it has the obvious flipside of troop build-up or return.

What might be considered instead is demilitarisation. This has the prospect instead, it seems to me, of (a) enhancing security for all parties, (b) diminish tensions, (c) build mutual confidence and (d) save a lot of money and resources. Furthermore demilitarisation of the island could be done without prejudice to nor dependent on broader a broader political settlement. Additionally demilitarisation of the island would address the outrage which is the British sovereign bases.

What might demilitarisation entail ? Maybe the disbandment of RoC and TRNC armed forces and their complete substitution with civil and unarmed police forces. Perhaps the commitment to rescind basing rights to foreign militaries (whose current justifications for continued deployment is the military threat/insecuirty posed by the other side); so in removing the threat you remove the justification for foreign military presence and assistance. Perhaps the creation of trans-Green Line 'peace parks' could be the first step. In a 'peace park', which is usually a common ecological zone bisected by a border, the norm is to exclude ALL military activities, personnel and materials. There are of course avenues to pursue other than these quick suggestions.

What could be the objections to such a proposal ? (I have a number in mind, but I wonder what Forum members might think).

I disagree with the TC demilitarization and here is why:

Firstly, you are asking the side outnumbered 1 to 4 in this conflict to disarm as if their vulnerability would be the same with the other in a demilitarized environment in Cyprus; historical and present facts of Cyprus suggests otherwise. Secondly, your proposal is based on the assumption that the military presence of both sides is equivalently a nuisance to the both sides hence demilitarisation is an equivalent favor to both sides - no. I couldn`t care less about the National Guard now, but I know the vice versa isn`t true. The rights they have taken away from me is a matter still on the table for discussion only and only because I have my military to keep it on the table. Unfortunately, military might is the language these people will understand and this proposal takes that away from me without returning+guaranteeing me my rights.

Consequently, I find your proposal unbalanced and given the past and current agenda/actions of the GC leadership quite unfair to the TC side. I do not see the demilitarization of the two sides as a compromise to the GC side at all – to the contrary it is music to their ears because unfortunately our military might seems to be the only thing that stands between their complete rein over Cyprus and the current status. This proposal is the final golden trophy to the GC side for their criminal policies/actions over the TCs for almost half a century - unsuprisingly two GC members immediately expressed to be in favor of the proposal. I strongly believe that demilitarization may perhaps be considered fair and reasonable only and only under the circumstances where both sides have full recognition.

a)Oh we have taken your rights away and you have taken none of our rights. The truth is you have taken both YOUR and OUR rights away.
Demilitarisation as proposed by CopperLine will keep those taken away rights as they are today. It is just a step forward.He also said the military will be replaced by police that would avert any violent actions from any citizen.

b)You are contradicting yourself. Recognition means partition.Means acknowledging and accepting the already taken away rights of the GCs. Forget it.

[Nikitas]

Greece pulling the strings in the Republic oc Cyprus!!! Zan you really are living in denial. Greece has no desire to pull anything in Cyprus, it has gotten itself out of the mess and it is not about to do anything to come back in!

Turkey has 4 divisions (one armoured), one big air base, control of air space, ports and sea space of northern Cyprus and all this is to keep out the Greek Cypriot national guard? Do they really need 400 tanks on the island to protect you? You are either not aware of the balance of forces on the island or you are underestimating other people's ability to judge. The same protection of the Turkish Cypriots could be guaranteed by a quarter of that force, considering that there is no Cypriot air or sea power to prevent instant reinforcement in case of hostilities. Keeping such overwhelming force on the island shows other thoughts and intentions.

[Viewpoint]

Greece pulling the strings in the Republic oc Cyprus!!! Zan you really are living in denial. Greece has no desire to pull anything in Cyprus, it has gotten itself out of the mess and it is not about to do anything to come back in!

Turkey has 4 divisions (one armoured), one big air base, control of air space, ports and sea space of northern Cyprus and all this is to keep out the Greek Cypriot national guard? Do they really need 400 tanks on the island to protect you? You are either not aware of the balance of forces on the island or you are underestimating other people's ability to judge. The same protection of the Turkish Cypriots could be guaranteed by a quarter of that force, considering that there is no Cypriot air or sea power to prevent instant reinforcement in case of hostilities. Keeping such overwhelming force on the island shows other thoughts and intentions.

What difference does it make if there 400.000 soldiers the point is that they will not leave unless the structure to insure our safety is in place via a solution. Why do people get stuck on numbers? do the GC have other intentions when they say they want the Turkish army to reduce numbers? Sounds very suspicious to me and makes me want to increase the number rather than reduce it.

[DT.]

oh, no need to remind of my wrong... I hold the worst punishable thing one can carry on his shoulders in Cyprus: born and proud to be a Turkish Cypriot.

Okay Murataga, I heard your pleads! That is why I offered you 18% of my country, for you and the rest of your community to go and leave there, completely separately from us GCs that have such feelings against your TC “ethnicity,” and I even promised you to built a 12 meter wall separating the two areas, so that there is no chance for contact with each other or any GC intrusions into the north for the purpose of annihilating your “people!” What else do you want? I even said you can keep all your troops there to protect you! What are you waiting for? Why are you wasting your time?

The whole point is that you are using the Turkish army as the rod with which to beat us with. They are there, as Murataga has said until a settlement is reached and then we either have our own army or the one according to the Zurich agreement all be it on new terms AFTER negotiations. The withdrawal of the Turkish army is not the be all and end all of the problem and the chances of it helping the "RoC" to start proper discussions is nil so lets cut the crap. They are no threat to you but are protectors to us. The price we have to pay for that more than outweighs the good they do in my country.

As I have mentioned before, the chance of war increases without their overwhelming presence. The deterrent is there and it has kept you at bay for over 40 years. They are going nowhere. They have no relevance on how and when discussions should take place. If they do then it is just the same old lame excuse you have been using over and over again and the world has stopped listening to that old rubbish. In the same way Greece is pulling the strings in the "RoC" they can have their influence whether they are on the island or not so the argument is defunct even before it is started.

if you think we're not threatened by the presence of an army that has attacked us before then you are out of touch with reality and what the GC concerns really are. The Turkish army has invaded, killed and raped our countrymen why would we ever harbour ill feelings against it?

And how the hell can we feel safe with 30,000 Turkish goose steppers pointing their guns at us when only a few years ago they advanced another 100 metres in Strovillia.

[DT.]

Greece pulling the strings in the Republic oc Cyprus!!! Zan you really are living in denial. Greece has no desire to pull anything in Cyprus, it has gotten itself out of the mess and it is not about to do anything to come back in!

Turkey has 4 divisions (one armoured), one big air base, control of air space, ports and sea space of northern Cyprus and all this is to keep out the Greek Cypriot national guard? Do they really need 400 tanks on the island to protect you? You are either not aware of the balance of forces on the island or you are underestimating other people's ability to judge. The same protection of the Turkish Cypriots could be guaranteed by a quarter of that force, considering that there is no Cypriot air or sea power to prevent instant reinforcement in case of hostilities. Keeping such overwhelming force on the island shows other thoughts and intentions.

What difference does it make if there 400.000 soldiers the point is that they will not leave unless the structure to insure our safety is in place via a solution. Why do people get stuck on numbers? do the GC have other intentions when they say they want the Turkish army to reduce numbers? Sounds very suspicious to me and makes me want to increase the number rather than reduce it.

Who made you General?

And we are mostly responding to Zan's "assurances" that we should not feel threatened by the Turkish mujahedin.

[Jerry]

Greece pulling the strings in the Republic oc Cyprus!!! Zan you really are living in denial. Greece has no desire to pull anything in Cyprus, it has gotten itself out of the mess and it is not about to do anything to come back in!

Turkey has 4 divisions (one armoured), one big air base, control of air space, ports and sea space of northern Cyprus and all this is to keep out the Greek Cypriot national guard? Do they really need 400 tanks on the island to protect you? You are either not aware of the balance of forces on the island or you are underestimating other people's ability to judge. The same protection of the Turkish Cypriots could be guaranteed by a quarter of that force, considering that there is no Cypriot air or sea power to prevent instant reinforcement in case of hostilities. Keeping such overwhelming force on the island shows other thoughts and intentions.

What difference does it make if there 400.000 soldiers the point is that they will not leave unless the structure to insure our safety is in place via a solution. Why do people get stuck on numbers? do the GC have other intentions when they say they want the Turkish army to reduce numbers? Sounds very suspicious to me and makes me want to increase the number rather than reduce it.

VP, the overwhelming military superiority of Turkish forces is a way of saying "might is right". To me it demonstrates an unwillingness to solve the problem other than by the treat of force. Nikitas is correct. There is absolutely no need for one quarter of the population of the north to be armed soldiers. They do you no favours, a friend of mine went there on holiday and got fed up looking for a quiet beach, he said all the best ones were military zones. Its about time Turkey stood back a little like Greece has, you will have to leave the Middle Ages behind if you want to join the EU.

[zan]

oh, no need to remind of my wrong... I hold the worst punishable thing one can carry on his shoulders in Cyprus: born and proud to be a Turkish Cypriot.

Okay Murataga, I heard your pleads! That is why I offered you 18% of my country, for you and the rest of your community to go and leave there, completely separately from us GCs that have such feelings against your TC “ethnicity,” and I even promised you to built a 12 meter wall separating the two areas, so that there is no chance for contact with each other or any GC intrusions into the north for the purpose of annihilating your “people!” What else do you want? I even said you can keep all your troops there to protect you! What are you waiting for? Why are you wasting your time?

The whole point is that you are using the Turkish army as the rod with which to beat us with. They are there, as Murataga has said until a settlement is reached and then we either have our own army or the one according to the Zurich agreement all be it on new terms AFTER negotiations. The withdrawal of the Turkish army is not the be all and end all of the problem and the chances of it helping the "RoC" to start proper discussions is nil so lets cut the crap. They are no threat to you but are protectors to us. The price we have to pay for that more than outweighs the good they do in my country.

As I have mentioned before, the chance of war increases without their overwhelming presence. The deterrent is there and it has kept you at bay for over 40 years. They are going nowhere. They have no relevance on how and when discussions should take place. If they do then it is just the same old lame excuse you have been using over and over again and the world has stopped listening to that old rubbish. In the same way Greece is pulling the strings in the "RoC" they can have their influence whether they are on the island or not so the argument is defunct even before it is started.

if you think we're not threatened by the presence of an army that has attacked us before then you are out of touch with reality and what the GC concerns really are. The Turkish army has invaded, killed and raped our countrymen why would we ever harbour ill feelings against it?

And how the hell can we feel safe with 30,000 Turkish goose steppers pointing their guns at us when only a few years ago they advanced another 100 metres in Strovillia.

Perhaps Bir would assure you that nothing will happen. The fact that the "RoC" has ordered 40 new tanks does not bother me so why should Turkey bother you. Incidents of intrusions into the border and taking down of flags would have had much greater implications had the Turkish army not been there. I am sorry tthat there was a shooting but that is exactly the point. Say it happened with only a handful of TCs protecting us..We would have been attacked and the excuse would have been just as in 63, 68 and 74. We cannot give you that excuse again...simple as that!!!

[DT.]

oh, no need to remind of my wrong... I hold the worst punishable thing one can carry on his shoulders in Cyprus: born and proud to be a Turkish Cypriot.

Okay Murataga, I heard your pleads! That is why I offered you 18% of my country, for you and the rest of your community to go and leave there, completely separately from us GCs that have such feelings against your TC “ethnicity,” and I even promised you to built a 12 meter wall separating the two areas, so that there is no chance for contact with each other or any GC intrusions into the north for the purpose of annihilating your “people!” What else do you want? I even said you can keep all your troops there to protect you! What are you waiting for? Why are you wasting your time?

The whole point is that you are using the Turkish army as the rod with which to beat us with. They are there, as Murataga has said until a settlement is reached and then we either have our own army or the one according to the Zurich agreement all be it on new terms AFTER negotiations. The withdrawal of the Turkish army is not the be all and end all of the problem and the chances of it helping the "RoC" to start proper discussions is nil so lets cut the crap. They are no threat to you but are protectors to us. The price we have to pay for that more than outweighs the good they do in my country.

As I have mentioned before, the chance of war increases without their overwhelming presence. The deterrent is there and it has kept you at bay for over 40 years. They are going nowhere. They have no relevance on how and when discussions should take place. If they do then it is just the same old lame excuse you have been using over and over again and the world has stopped listening to that old rubbish. In the same way Greece is pulling the strings in the "RoC" they can have their influence whether they are on the island or not so the argument is defunct even before it is started.

if you think we're not threatened by the presence of an army that has attacked us before then you are out of touch with reality and what the GC concerns really are. The Turkish army has invaded, killed and raped our countrymen why would we ever harbour ill feelings against it?

And how the hell can we feel safe with 30,000 Turkish goose steppers pointing their guns at us when only a few years ago they advanced another 100 metres in Strovillia.

Perhaps Bir would assure you that nothing will happen. The fact that the "RoC" has ordered 40 new tanks does not bother me so why should Turkey bother you. Incidents of intrusions into the border and taking down of flags would have had much greater implications had the Turkish army not been there. I am sorry tthat there was a shooting but that is exactly the point. Say it happened with only a handful of TCs protecting us..We would have been attacked and the excuse would have been just as in 63, 68 and 74. We cannot give you that excuse again...simple as that!!!

hte example i gave was nothing to do with flags or anything involving a GC. The turkish guard post wanted to capture the road ahead by about 100 metres so they simply advanced 100m and capture the road. BUT...I FORGET....Turkey's never to blame.

[zan]

oh, no need to remind of my wrong... I hold the worst punishable thing one can carry on his shoulders in Cyprus: born and proud to be a Turkish Cypriot.

Okay Murataga, I heard your pleads! That is why I offered you 18% of my country, for you and the rest of your community to go and leave there, completely separately from us GCs that have such feelings against your TC “ethnicity,” and I even promised you to built a 12 meter wall separating the two areas, so that there is no chance for contact with each other or any GC intrusions into the north for the purpose of annihilating your “people!” What else do you want? I even said you can keep all your troops there to protect you! What are you waiting for? Why are you wasting your time?

The whole point is that you are using the Turkish army as the rod with which to beat us with. They are there, as Murataga has said until a settlement is reached and then we either have our own army or the one according to the Zurich agreement all be it on new terms AFTER negotiations. The withdrawal of the Turkish army is not the be all and end all of the problem and the chances of it helping the "RoC" to start proper discussions is nil so lets cut the crap. They are no threat to you but are protectors to us. The price we have to pay for that more than outweighs the good they do in my country.

As I have mentioned before, the chance of war increases without their overwhelming presence. The deterrent is there and it has kept you at bay for over 40 years. They are going nowhere. They have no relevance on how and when discussions should take place. If they do then it is just the same old lame excuse you have been using over and over again and the world has stopped listening to that old rubbish. In the same way Greece is pulling the strings in the "RoC" they can have their influence whether they are on the island or not so the argument is defunct even before it is started.

if you think we're not threatened by the presence of an army that has attacked us before then you are out of touch with reality and what the GC concerns really are. The Turkish army has invaded, killed and raped our countrymen why would we ever harbour ill feelings against it?

And how the hell can we feel safe with 30,000 Turkish goose steppers pointing their guns at us when only a few years ago they advanced another 100 metres in Strovillia.

Perhaps Bir would assure you that nothing will happen. The fact that the "RoC" has ordered 40 new tanks does not bother me so why should Turkey bother you. Incidents of intrusions into the border and taking down of flags would have had much greater implications had the Turkish army not been there. I am sorry tthat there was a shooting but that is exactly the point. Say it happened with only a handful of TCs protecting us..We would have been attacked and the excuse would have been just as in 63, 68 and 74. We cannot give you that excuse again...simple as that!!!

hte example i gave was nothing to do with flags or anything involving a GC. The turkish guard post wanted to capture the road ahead by about 100 metres so they simply advanced 100m and capture the road. BUT...I FORGET....Turkey's never to blame.

Didn't say it was not to blame but can you provide more information on what the circumstances were...We are at war after all