Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Well nearly!!!!!!!!!

[miltiades]

The world may say Turkiey should begin withdrawl of troops, however, if the international community does nothing about it as it has not done for many years now, Turkey will not withdraw anything. If the international community and the US have integrity they will slap Turkey with a BIG FAT economic embargo.

If they have done this in 33 years aint gonna happen any day soon, Turkey USA relations are far more important than 800.000 arrogant GCs. You thought the EU would slove all your problems but what have they done jack shit, no one cares you have to solve it yourselves and stop blaming everyone else.

Pleased to see you DO LIKE the Cypriots !!!
Well I do not think that 200 thousand or so T/Cs are arrogant.I think they are a decent sort of people and share so much culture with their compatriots also believe that the overwhelming majority of T/Cs are nothing like you or your mate Eric !!

[miltiades]

Well nearly!!!!!!!!!

[Eric dayi]

The world may say Turkiey should begin withdrawl of troops, however, if the international community does nothing about it as it has not done for many years now, Turkey will not withdraw anything. If the international community and the US have integrity they will slap Turkey with a BIG FAT economic embargo.

If they have done this in 33 years aint gonna happen any day soon, Turkey USA relations are far more important than 800.000 arrogant GCs. You thought the EU would slove all your problems but what have they done jack shit, no one cares you have to solve it yourselves and stop blaming everyone else.

Pleased to see you DO LIKE the Cypriots !!!
Well I do not think that 200 thousand or so T/Cs are arrogant.I think they are a decent sort of people and share so much culture with their compatriots also believe that the overwhelming majority of T/Cs are nothing like you or your mate Eric !!

Well, I'm sure glad I am not a senile old fool like you and VP is also not a senile old fool like you.

AND it seems that the "overwhelming majority of T/Cs" do also not show any signs at all that they are senile old fools like you. If they were, they would have surrendered to you GCs by now.

[CopperLine]

The main problems with proposals to 'withdraw troops' are that (i) there is great reluctance to be first mover, (ii) it doesn't necessarily lead to feeling more secure, and (iii) it has the obvious flipside of troop build-up or return.

What might be considered instead is demilitarisation. This has the prospect instead, it seems to me, of (a) enhancing security for all parties, (b) diminish tensions, (c) build mutual confidence and (d) save a lot of money and resources. Furthermore demilitarisation of the island could be done without prejudice to nor dependent on broader a broader political settlement. Additionally demilitarisation of the island would address the outrage which is the British sovereign bases.

What might demilitarisation entail ? Maybe the disbandment of RoC and TRNC armed forces and their complete substitution with civil and unarmed police forces. Perhaps the commitment to rescind basing rights to foreign militaries (whose current justifications for continued deployment is the military threat/insecuirty posed by the other side); so in removing the threat you remove the justification for foreign military presence and assistance. Perhaps the creation of trans-Green Line 'peace parks' could be the first step. In a 'peace park', which is usually a common ecological zone bisected by a border, the norm is to exclude ALL military activities, personnel and materials. There are of course avenues to pursue other than these quick suggestions.

What could be the objections to such a proposal ? (I have a number in mind, but I wonder what Forum members might think).

[zan]

The main problems with proposals to 'withdraw troops' are that it (i) there is great reluctance to be first mover, (ii) it doesn't necessarily lead to feeling more secure, and (iii) it has the obvious flipside of troop build-up or return.

Wht might be considerd instead is demilitarisation. This has the prospect instead, it seems to me, of (a) enhancing security for all parties, (b) diminish tensions, (c) build mutual confidence and (d) save a lot of money. Furthermore demilitarisation of the island could be done without prejudice to nor dependent on broader a broader political settlement. Additionally demilitarisation of the island would address the outrage which is the British sovereign bases.

What might demilitarisation entail ? Maybe the disbandment of RoC and TRNC armed forces and their complete substitution with civil and unarmed police forces. Perhaps the commitment to rescind basing rights to foreign militaries (whose current justifications for continued deployment is the military threat/insecuirty posed by the other side); so in removing the threat you remove the justification for foreign military presence and assistance. Perhaps the creation of trans-Green Line 'peace parks' could be the first step. In a 'peace park', which is usually a common ecological zone bisected by a border, the norm is to exclude ALL military activities, personnel and materials.

What could be the objections to such a proposal ? (I have a number in mind, but I wonder what Forum members might think).

Lost the typing again....F**K!!!


The problem with withdrawing Troops is going to come to the point where one side suspects the other and starts to move troops back in...This would be disastrous.



The problem with peace parks, I have already raised this point when the proposed parade at Ledra street was proposed. Who is going to police it???

I did write a bit more on this but I lost it sorry!!!!

[boomerang]

your proposal is only equal to one side of the triangle, because it does not address a return to normality...we also need a system where everyones rights are respected and guaranteed at the same time...

removing the troops back to turkey alone does not mean turkey will not pull the strings...this is the problem...

Turkey needs to let go off Cyprus...something she is unwilling to do, and continously shooting her self in the foot...

The RoC army is legal in Cyprus, where the Turkish army's presence is not...so you can not compare the two...you cannot reward the illegality with abolition of legality...

[zan]

The main problems with proposals to 'withdraw troops' are that it (i) there is great reluctance to be first mover, (ii) it doesn't necessarily lead to feeling more secure, and (iii) it has the obvious flipside of troop build-up or return.

Wht might be considerd instead is demilitarisation. This has the prospect instead, it seems to me, of (a) enhancing security for all parties, (b) diminish tensions, (c) build mutual confidence and (d) save a lot of money. Furthermore demilitarisation of the island could be done without prejudice to nor dependent on broader a broader political settlement. Additionally demilitarisation of the island would address the outrage which is the British sovereign bases.

What might demilitarisation entail ? Maybe the disbandment of RoC and TRNC armed forces and their complete substitution with civil and unarmed police forces. Perhaps the commitment to rescind basing rights to foreign militaries (whose current justifications for continued deployment is the military threat/insecuirty posed by the other side); so in removing the threat you remove the justification for foreign military presence and assistance. Perhaps the creation of trans-Green Line 'peace parks' could be the first step. In a 'peace park', which is usually a common ecological zone bisected by a border, the norm is to exclude ALL military activities, personnel and materials.

What could be the objections to such a proposal ? (I have a number in mind, but I wonder what Forum members might think).

Lost the typing again....F**K!!!


The problem with withdrawing Troops is going to come to the point where one side suspects the other and starts to move troops back in...This would be disastrous.



The problem with peace parks, I have already raised this point when the proposed parade at Ledra street was proposed. Who is going to police it???

I did write a bit more on this but I lost it sorry!!!!

[CopperLine]

Boomerang,
Thanks for the speedy reply.

You wrote that the,

proposal is only equal to one side of the triangle, because it does not address a return to normality

I know, but the point is that in all the time that it will take to return to normality (if ever) the pernicious and threatening aspects of a military presence (of whatever kind, from wherever, whether 'legal' or 'illegal') could be dealt with.

I suppose that there are two broad schools of thought, each which has adherents from all sides of the debate. One school of thought holds that any settlement must be comprehensive thereby addressing all aspects of the division - human rights, land, property, compensation, right of return, foreign military presence, constitution and so on and so forth. Many people in this school want nothing short of a single, final and comprehensive settlement. Fair enough.
A second school of thought, again with adherents from all sides, maintains that not only can more progress be made through a piece by piece, maybe sector by sector, issue by issue approach, but that such an approach would also hasten and smooth the path for a comprehensive settlement.

In that light, my suggestion for demilitarisation is firmly from within the second school. It doesn't pretend to address, say, the question of right to return, or property compensation, nor does it seek to determine what is legal or illegal. What it seeks to do is ease the current sources of insecurity for all in just this one field, the military question.

removing the troops back to turkey alone does not mean turkey will not pull the strings...this is the problem..

I agree. My thinking behind the demilitarisation proposal is that - to put it crudely - one is caling Turkey's bluff. If Turkey's justification for troop presence is the perceived threat to TRNC and TCs from RoC and GCs - and this is what Turkey says itself, and that justification is what TCs many often invoke, and what many GCs are confronted with - then removal of the grounds for Turkey's justification then puts Turkey on the spot, including internationally. The obverse applies, albeit differently, to the RoC armed forces (no, I am not making T and RoC armned forces morally, legally or politically equivalent). A different argument applies for the British sovereign bases insofar as they have never (?) been justified in terms of threats from within Cyprus or even to Cyprus.

Turkey needs to let go off Cyprus...something she is unwilling to do, and continously shooting her self in the foot...

Again I agree. But restating the problem doesn't resolve it. Our problem is how we get from A to B. A we don't like but that's where we are; B we like but we're not there. Can we make some progress toward reaching B without a comprehensive settlement ? I supect that we can, here are some tentative and partial suggestions.


As far as I can see things, so long as the comprehensive settlement is the 'only game in town' we're not likely to get anywhere. Annan was as close to a comprehensive proposal as we're likely to get and it seems that it is dead in the water. The reality is that there is a de facto partition which seems - whether for good reason or bad, whether intentionally or unintentionally - likely to continue for the forseeable future. We can either say 'so be it' and resign ourselves to that, or we can try to thinks of ways to break the log-jam.

[CopperLine]

Zan,

The problem with withdrawing Troops is going to come to the point where one side suspects the other and starts to move troops back in...This would be disastrous.

Agreed, and therein lies the limitation of troop withdrawal proposals, especially where the evaluation of the security threat is take by armies themselves. (The military, like other organisations, has a tendency to inflate its own importance and its own raison d'etre thereby securing more resources).

A corollary of demilitarisation is that the military is progressively removed from deciding what is a security problem. Clearly this is a difficult and sensitive task to undertake.

If we don't propose something like demilitarisation then the military will always insist that they know best and security decisions are theirs alone to make and implement. If that is the case then Cyprus will remain one of the most militarised places in the world (per capita, perhaps even by area).

For quick reference, have you got some links to your peace park postings ?