Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

I'm a newcomer to this forum. After reading the various threads and the replys within them, I have to say that I am not overly impressed with it. This forum - I understand - is for the purpose of discussing the Cyprus issue and exchanging ideas. It seems like the predominant items being exchanged instead are insults and threats.

The essence of democracy is to hear both sides on an argument so that a rational decision can be made. After reading your posts, all that is coming out from this forum is not healthy debate, but inflamed rhetoric from entrenched positions, and a mutual hostility towards those with more moderate views. Not exactly a convivial atmosphere.

If this forum is an example of the prevailing opinions held on the island, then all I can say is that a dose of rationality is well overdue.

Utu, what you say would require two things:

1) A common aim

Unfortunately "solving the Cyprus problem" means two different things to the two sides. To GCs means having their land and their rights back, and to TCs it means the official establishment of a separate Turkish state in Cyprus.

This different aims are also contradictory, because without ethnically cleansing the GCs and violating their rights, there is no way that a Turkish state can be established, since the north part of Cyprus is the homeland of 5 times more GCs than TCs.

So if the aim of the two sides is totally different there is no way any debate or discussion can have any result. It is like looking at a map and trying to decide on how we will go somewhere, when it is totally obvious that we don't even agree on the destination.

2) The discussion taking place to be limited by principles.

Many times I said that to have a chance in getting somewhere with debate then any suggestions should be within the framework of universal principles such as human rights, democracy, international law etc.

However this does not happen, and what counts is apparently only the balance of power and brute force, and not any principles.

Therefore the situation in Cyprus is that of a war in a cease fire and the discussions here simply reflect this.

Occasionally you will find the non-partitionist TC with whom the GCs can find common ground since their aims do not conflict. Or on the other hand you can find some GC that wouldn't mind if Cyprus capitulated and granted to the invader most of what they took by force with their 1974 invasion, and with whom TCs can find a common ground.

That said, what is the funny part is that what we do or say in Cyprus matters little. The regional and world powers are served with not solving the Cyprus problem and that is why we still have it. And by "not solving" I mean the current status quo, or things like the "Annan problem" that would maintain (if nor increase) a problematic situation, where Cypriots are divided and in a conflict with each other, while the foreign powers exploit the problematic situation to get what they want from our island.

[utu]

Get Real, The tone of your posts are doing noone any favors here. Your referring to expatkiwi as a 'scumbag' and referring to Eric dayi as 'someone who makes me laugh' rings rather hollow after other forum members refer to you as a blackmailer. It doesn't help you, or your cause if you have to refer to antagonism and threats. The term 'moral high ground' comes to mind.

Piratus, Your comments regarding foreign interests and how it relates to the Cyprus problem is food for thought. The island is in a strategic location in Eurasia and as such, one has to wonder who - outside of Turkey, Greece, and the UK - would benefit most from the status quo.

The real issue is - IMHO - what do the people living in Cyprus want? I suppose that peace is the answer, but under what terms? Expatkiwi's observation of 'divorced couples not being able to live together under one roof' is a valid simile, so forced amalgamation would end up reigniting conflict. What is left? Reconciliation really cannot take place until mutual suspicions are removed. It doesn't leave many choices, does it?

[Viewpoint]

Get Real, The tone of your posts are doing noone any favors here. Your referring to expatkiwi as a 'scumbag' and referring to Eric dayi as 'someone who makes me laugh' rings rather hollow after other forum members refer to you as a blackmailer. It doesn't help you, or your cause if you have to refer to antagonism and threats. The term 'moral high ground' comes to mind.

Piratus, Your comments regarding foreign interests and how it relates to the Cyprus problem is food for thought. The island is in a strategic location in Eurasia and as such, one has to wonder who - outside of Turkey, Greece, and the UK - would benefit most from the status quo.

The real issue is - IMHO - what do the people living in Cyprus want? I suppose that peace is the answer, but under what terms? Expatkiwi's observation of 'divorced couples not being able to live together under one roof' is a valid simile, so forced amalgamation would end up reigniting conflict. What is left? Reconciliation really cannot take place until mutual suspicions are removed. It doesn't leave many choices, does it?

utu welcome to the forum.

You have hit the nail on the head but Gcs do not want to see anything but black and white, they have not yet cottoned onto shades of gray or even other colours. We have discussed for years possible solutions and the AP was the only time it was put before the people, we all know the outcome of that attempt. As far as I can see the GCs want it their way and nothing else, no level playing field and no political equality..they have 90% of they want do you really think that will risk all that for 10% and sharing with TCs, they see us as a problematic community who would scupper their plans to maintain the current GC state. So status quo at the cost of a few refugees hardship who are fast dieing out for a GC state is not a high price to pay.

[zan]

Phoenix, I am not expatkiwi. Same continent, but he's south of the border from where I am.
Get Real, I have looked over the thread, plus looked over the article in Wikipedia. Have you looked at it lately?

The last time I looked the article was made more neutral but my question is why did he not write it up fairly from the begining?

Have you got any problems with nother pages that are written about Cyprus??

I've actually got a LOT of problems with a LOT of pages and that's why I'm initiating a special team to deal with this and I'll be making an announcement soon. I'm working on it.

Will they also be blackmailing and then assisinating the authors in Wiki. What I shall be doing is contacting the admin of Wiki and warning them of your intent and tell them to watch out for a hostile historian. Now!!! I wonder if I can get your IP address from ATCA???????

[Piratis]

Get Real, The tone of your posts are doing noone any favors here. Your referring to expatkiwi as a 'scumbag' and referring to Eric dayi as 'someone who makes me laugh' rings rather hollow after other forum members refer to you as a blackmailer. It doesn't help you, or your cause if you have to refer to antagonism and threats. The term 'moral high ground' comes to mind.

Piratus, Your comments regarding foreign interests and how it relates to the Cyprus problem is food for thought. The island is in a strategic location in Eurasia and as such, one has to wonder who - outside of Turkey, Greece, and the UK - would benefit most from the status quo.

The real issue is - IMHO - what do the people living in Cyprus want? I suppose that peace is the answer, but under what terms? Expatkiwi's observation of 'divorced couples not being able to live together under one roof' is a valid simile, so forced amalgamation would end up reigniting conflict. What is left? Reconciliation really cannot take place until mutual suspicions are removed. It doesn't leave many choices, does it?

If somebody came and told you "Give me your land and property or face conflict with me" what would you do? We of course have the right to fight to defend what belongs to us against those that have no right to demand it.

TCs are not the only ethnic minority in the world, and Cyprus is not the only country that had some conflict between its ethnic groups in the past. Just like ethnic groups in other countries have learned to coexist under a democratic state where each citizen is equal without racist discriminations and without one trying to steal the land of another, so can we.

The problem is that the Turks want to use brute force in order to gain on our loss, and as long as they choose conflict they should be sure that we will fight for our rights and not capitulate.

Therefore the solution is not "force the majority of Cypriots* to capitulate and give up their rights and land", but "force the TCs/Turkey to accept what is the norm in every other country in the world"(Even Turkey itself with its 20% Kurdish community!!)

* With "majority of Cypriots" above I don't refer only to GCs, but to Armenian Cypriots, Latin Cypriots, Maronite Cypriots and everybody else who has the Cypriot citizenship. We (all Cypriots except TCs) will not accept to become second category citizens. The Turks should realize that the Ottoman era is over, and now they have to accept democracy and human rights, and they can not impose by force whatever they feel like.

[zan]

Get Real, The tone of your posts are doing noone any favors here. Your referring to expatkiwi as a 'scumbag' and referring to Eric dayi as 'someone who makes me laugh' rings rather hollow after other forum members refer to you as a blackmailer. It doesn't help you, or your cause if you have to refer to antagonism and threats. The term 'moral high ground' comes to mind.

Piratus, Your comments regarding foreign interests and how it relates to the Cyprus problem is food for thought. The island is in a strategic location in Eurasia and as such, one has to wonder who - outside of Turkey, Greece, and the UK - would benefit most from the status quo.

The real issue is - IMHO - what do the people living in Cyprus want? I suppose that peace is the answer, but under what terms? Expatkiwi's observation of 'divorced couples not being able to live together under one roof' is a valid simile, so forced amalgamation would end up reigniting conflict. What is left? Reconciliation really cannot take place until mutual suspicions are removed. It doesn't leave many choices, does it?

If somebody came and told you "Give me your land and property or face conflict with me" what would you do? We of course have the right to fight to defend what belongs to us against those that have no right to demand it.

TCs are not the only ethnic minority in the world, and Cyprus is not the only country that had some conflict between its ethnic groups in the past. Just like ethnic groups in other countries have learned to coexist under a democratic state where each citizen is equal without racist discriminations and without one trying to steal the land of another, so can we.

The problem is that the Turks want to use brute force in order to gain on our loss, and as long as they choose conflict they should be sure that we will fight for our rights and not capitulate.

Therefore the solution is not "force the majority of Cypriots* to capitulate and give up their rights and land", but "force the TCs/Turkey to accept what is the norm in every other country in the world"(Even Turkey itself with its 20% Kurdish community!!)

* With "majority of Cypriots" above I don't refer only to GCs, but to Armenian Cypriots, Latin Cypriots, Maronite Cypriots and everybody else who has the Cypriot citizenship. We (all Cypriots except TCs) will not accept to become second category citizens. The Turks should realize that the Ottoman era is over, and now they have to accept democracy and human rights, and they can not impose by force whatever they feel like.

For once and for all numbskull...We are not an ethnic minority but partners in Cyprus and we will accept nothing else!!!

[Piratis]

zan, I replied to utu because he asked for a rational debate without insults.

So in this thread I will not bother with your insulting and irrational statements.

If we separate Cypriots into different groups where one group is much bigger than the other, then the smaller group constitutes a minority by definition. Of course I would have no problem not to separate Cypriots in any groups, but I know that you wouldn't accept that.

If you base your "argument" on your understanding of the 1960 agreements, then I should remind you that with those agreements you were only the "minor partner" since the GCs had the president and TCs the vice president.

P.S. the world "partnership" is mentioned nowhere officially.

[DT.]

Get Real, The tone of your posts are doing noone any favors here. Your referring to expatkiwi as a 'scumbag' and referring to Eric dayi as 'someone who makes me laugh' rings rather hollow after other forum members refer to you as a blackmailer. It doesn't help you, or your cause if you have to refer to antagonism and threats. The term 'moral high ground' comes to mind.

Piratus, Your comments regarding foreign interests and how it relates to the Cyprus problem is food for thought. The island is in a strategic location in Eurasia and as such, one has to wonder who - outside of Turkey, Greece, and the UK - would benefit most from the status quo.

The real issue is - IMHO - what do the people living in Cyprus want? I suppose that peace is the answer, but under what terms? Expatkiwi's observation of 'divorced couples not being able to live together under one roof' is a valid simile, so forced amalgamation would end up reigniting conflict. What is left? Reconciliation really cannot take place until mutual suspicions are removed. It doesn't leave many choices, does it?

If somebody came and told you "Give me your land and property or face conflict with me" what would you do? We of course have the right to fight to defend what belongs to us against those that have no right to demand it.

TCs are not the only ethnic minority in the world, and Cyprus is not the only country that had some conflict between its ethnic groups in the past. Just like ethnic groups in other countries have learned to coexist under a democratic state where each citizen is equal without racist discriminations and without one trying to steal the land of another, so can we.

The problem is that the Turks want to use brute force in order to gain on our loss, and as long as they choose conflict they should be sure that we will fight for our rights and not capitulate.

Therefore the solution is not "force the majority of Cypriots* to capitulate and give up their rights and land", but "force the TCs/Turkey to accept what is the norm in every other country in the world"(Even Turkey itself with its 20% Kurdish community!!)

* With "majority of Cypriots" above I don't refer only to GCs, but to Armenian Cypriots, Latin Cypriots, Maronite Cypriots and everybody else who has the Cypriot citizenship. We (all Cypriots except TCs) will not accept to become second category citizens. The Turks should realize that the Ottoman era is over, and now they have to accept democracy and human rights, and they can not impose by force whatever they feel like.

For once and for all numbskull...We are not an ethnic minority but partners in Cyprus and we will accept nothing else!!!

Hey! I thought we're debating in UTU style now....whats with the insults Zan?

[utu]

Okay, I have had a look at the ATCA forum, and read a number of posts from there, including both Eric dayi's and expatkiwi's. Eric comes across as a 'defender of his people', while expatkiwi - well, he is a little harder to figure out, but the tone of his posts basically point to wanting the Turkish Cypriots treated fairly after their years of isolation. Of course, the definition of 'fair' is what is at issue. Expatkiwi clearly believes that the Greek Cypriots will not treat the Turkish Cypriots fairly in a unitary state, thus partition is - in his own opinion - the only answer. That view - obviously judging from the various posts - is not a popular view here, but can a credible alternative view be presented?

[phoenix]

Okay, I have had a look at the ATCA forum, and read a number of posts from there, including both Eric dayi's and expatkiwi's. Eric comes across as a 'defender of his people', while expatkiwi - well, he is a little harder to figure out, but the tone of his posts basically point to wanting the Turkish Cypriots treated fairly after their years of isolation. Of course, the definition of 'fair' is what is at issue. Expatkiwi clearly believes that the Greek Cypriots will not treat the Turkish Cypriots fairly in a unitary state, thus partition is - in his own opinion - the only answer. That view - obviously judging from the various posts - is not a popular view here, but can a credible alternative view be presented?

Are you Expatkiwi's public relations representative by any chance?

You seem to be promoting him and his views rather a lot!