Cyprus-Forum.com

[Eric dayi]

Please note the Greek flags carried by Greek Cypriots at the Anan Plan referendum, it tells you the real reason why they voted "OXI".

For the love of God... don't tell me it's ENOSIS...

Go on GR, tell us why "Cypriots" would carry a foreign flag then.

Who is more qualified to answer that question Dayi?

Me or you?

The photos say it all GR but you are the one who is trying to dispute it so go ahead and tell us.

I don't believe this guy! He carries the Turkish flag around and asks me why some Cypriots carry foreign flags!

You keep calling the Greek flag foreign because you claim you are a "True Cypriot" and you still say it's ok to carry the Greek flag and expect us TCs to believe you don't want ENOSIS?

When and where did I say that it's ok to carry/hoist the Greek flag? Take a good look at my avatar Dayi and that should solve your queries and while you're at it take a look at yours!

You are going round in circles trying to worm your way out GR, why were the GCs carrying the Greek flag if as you claim they are "Cypriots" and do not want ENOSIS?

You avatar is as phony as you are.

I'm tired of your hypocrisies...

What's this the Slimy worm got stuck?

just go to bed!

Or what? Will you threaten me or blackmail me?

Where's all these "Cypriots" GR? And who are those people carrying the Greek flag in Cyprus at the Annan Plan referendum? Were they flown in from Greece especially for the day or are they "Cypriots" who hate us Turkish Cypriots and want ENOSIS?

[Kikapu]

Kik, in everyone of my posts I agree with my GC friends that the plan was not a well balanced one and understand their reason for voting OXI.

I don't remember claiming the TCs did not know the contents of the plan, I said it for the GCs but I doubt I said it for the TCs. My cousins knew full well the contents and the consequences of a YES vote. They knew they had very little chance to hang onto the properties given in "exchange" and yet they voted YES. They wanted a closure to this life long problem.

My argument is that more than the plan it was the TC community that was rejected. This is fact, not fantasy or the creation of my imagination.

Rejected for being Turks, simple as that.

But hey whats important for Kikapu? answer, to preserve his popularity.

I have now officially mamed you GOLDENBALLS

My apologies MR-from-NG. I miss read what you wrote here

"Zan, I would guess no more than 10% knew or understood the contents of the plan. They voted purely from the heart. they did it from the heart and their heart told them "vote NO, these are Turks, why would you want to live with Turks. Fuck them they are sub-human, scum Turks, vote NO"

I thought you meant the TC's, but if one reads all the way across, then it shows that you were talking about the GC's. Regardless, both sides were in the dark about the AP, except for very few people and each side got the results they wanted.

[Nikitas]

Guys, the Annan Plan was 9000 pages, the equivalent of 15 blockbuser books. If we figure on 600 pages per book.How could normal people with day jobs have the time to read it! Let's be honest with ourselves here, no one read it.

Do you know of anyone who read the whole thing? I doubt if Annan himself read his own plan in its entirety. I read as much of the plan as was made public, including the more arcane parts. I was against it for two simple reasons, one of which was not mentioned by anyone-

one reason was the separation of the Greek component state in two by the Dekhelia base and the silly provision for under and overpasses to link the two sides. In efect the Famagusta side was isolated from the rest of the component state and that was (for me) unacceptable.

two- all that was promised to the Greek Cypriot side was to be given in instalments ranging from six months to 15 years with no guarantees. Turkey refused to remove soldiers from these parts and let the UN take control of them in the interim period, a refusal which was suspicious in view of the eventual intended return of these territories.

I did note that on the ballot it had that unique text insinuating that the voters had read the plan and approved it! How can anyone read and understand such a complex text in a few days!!!! WHy then have that silly text?

For these and many other reasons it was safer to reject than to accept the plan. The objections were made clear that night at Burgenstock but everyone played tough and unyielding. So their plan was rejected. Serves them right for their arrogance on that night. A few hours more and a few changes and the plan would have been acceptable to most people. I would still oppose it because of the Famagusta district isolation which no one else seemed to notice.

[zan]

Guys, the Annan Plan was 9000 pages, the equivalent of 15 blockbuser books. If we figure on 600 pages per book.How could normal people with day jobs have the time to read it! Let's be honest with ourselves here, no one read it.

Do you know of anyone who read the whole thing? I doubt if Annan himself read his own plan in its entirety. I read as much of the plan as was made public, including the more arcane parts. I was against it for two simple reasons, one of which was not mentioned by anyone-

one reason was the separation of the Greek component state in two by the Dekhelia base and the silly provision for under and overpasses to link the two sides. In efect the Famagusta side was isolated from the rest of the component state and that was (for me) unacceptable.

two- all that was promised to the Greek Cypriot side was to be given in instalments ranging from six months to 15 years with no guarantees. Turkey refused to remove soldiers from these parts and let the UN take control of them in the interim period, a refusal which was suspicious in view of the eventual intended return of these territories.

I did note that on the ballot it had that unique text insinuating that the voters had read the plan and approved it! How can anyone read and understand such a complex text in a few days!!!! WHy then have that silly text?

For these and many other reasons it was safer to reject than to accept the plan. The objections were made clear that night at Burgenstock but everyone played tough and unyielding. So their plan was rejected. Serves them right for their arrogance on that night. A few hours more and a few changes and the plan would have been acceptable to most people. I would still oppose it because of the Famagusta district isolation which no one else seemed to notice.

Absolutely the point Nikitas but why was TPap not there to cross the T's and dot the I's????He then used the referendum to push the blame on the people that had no idea what the hell was going on. I am not really in favour of referendums for this reason alone...We elect the people into power and they should take the informed decisions and not try to palm difficult ones on to us.


What were the long term plans for Famagusta by the way....Would the problem, you have highlighted, been solved over time??

[Nikitas]

We had live coverage here in Greece of the events at Burgenstock. Pap and Christofias tried to get the details changed. The Turkish Cypriot side refused a side meeting to change the details. Erdogan arrived in a mood of a victor from the start. He is the one who refused any changes and swayed the Turkish Cypriot delegation.

Like I said, a few hours more would have changed things. But no one wanted to spend the time, it was a PR exercise from that point on. The disappointment was evident on everyones face when Prime Minister Karamanlis came out and said that "we failed to achieve a negotiated solution".

A good friend of mine was there as correspondent of one of the Greek TV channels. He described how Talat first promised to meet the Greek Cypriot side and then simply locked himself away. And to this day yo must red carefully statements made by Erdogan: "we won, and we did it without withdrawing a single soldier or returning a square centimeter of territory". Those are not the words of a man who was willing to compromise at Burgenstock or anywhere else. And who the fuck is he to interfere in how Cypriots solve their problems?

[zan]

We had live coverage here in Greece of the events at Burgenstock. Pap and Christofias tried to get the details changed. The Turkish Cypriot side refused a side meeting to change the details. Erdogan arrived in a mood of a victor from the start. He is the one who refused any changes and swayed the Turkish Cypriot delegation.

Like I said, a few hours more would have changed things. But no one wanted to spend the time, it was a PR exercise from that point on. The disappointment was evident on everyones face when Prime Minister Karamanlis came out and said that "we failed to achieve a negotiated solution".

A good friend of mine was there as correspondent of one of the Greek TV channels. He described how Talat first promised to meet the Greek Cypriot side and then simply locked himself away. And to this day yo must red carefully statements made by Erdogan: "we won, and we did it without withdrawing a single soldier or returning a square centimeter of territory". Those are not the words of a man who was willing to compromise at Burgenstock or anywhere else. And who the fuck is he to interfere in how Cypriots solve their problems?

What! In the way Ecevit is blamed for saving our lives?????

The rest can be interpreted in such a way as Tpap and the "RoC" intended...Why leave it to the last moment and hours away???????If the "RoC" was genuine about negotiating for all the people then I am sure that more would have happened sooner. They instead decided to carry on the policies of 63 and take the opportunity to take on Turkey and forget about the TCs...

[Nikitas]

As for Famagusta and its surrounding territory, the are pemanently cut off from the rest of the Greek component state by the Dekhelia base. The base stretches from the south coast up to the Turkish component state. In effect there were two separate parts of the Greek component state in perpetuity.

Second problem that no one noticed. If the British were to leave, who takes over the base area? There was no distinction in the plan made between the territory of the island and the territory of the Republic. It was deliberate and a way for the British to cause problems in the furure simply by leaving the Dekhelia base. The fair deal would have been to state at the start that the Turkish component state was so much of the territory of the ISLAND and no more. ALso state clearly that if the British were toleave then that territory would revert to the Greek component state. Things were deliberatly muddled by Lord Hannay who drafted the plan on his own.

[Nikitas]

My information is that negotiating was going on till the very last minute at Burgenstock. Then suddenly, once the Turkish delegation got there the Turkish Cypriot delegation made themselves scarce. Part of the procedure was that the meeting was to take care of the last details. Both sides were asked to present their final proposals there and then. The Greek side presented a document and it was totally ignored. It was a silly refusal because the demands were of a procedural nature, they did not change any substance of the plan.

[Kikapu]

If they did not know what was in the Annan Plan then how would they know it would have been all good for them Kiks??? You really are scraping the bottom of the barrel....(Nautical term for you). Yes they were excited about being in the EU and that was about that. They really thought that unification and the return to normal was going to happen so you not knowing anything about it and slandering the TC people is an absolute shame on you You have defended that butcher Makarios but you can sit there and denigrate all the TCs without a single bit of guilt...What a sad case you really are. Where was you Tpap when all the negotiations wee happening and why did he double cross the UN and the EU.......They ae pissed off at him for that so what does that tell you Einstein???

Once again you are trying to divert attention by bringing Makarios into the picture. How did I defend him by the way.??

I already answered your question on my previous post as to "who knew what and when". There's no shame in that the TC's said "Yes", because they were told it was good for them, which it was, so they were not lied to by their leaders, and the same for the GC's, that they were told it was bad for them, and it was, so no one lied there either. Rather than blaming the TC's or the GC's, which I'm not doing neither, unlike most of you on this forum, but I rather blame a bad peace plan that was too complicated and too unworkable. It was welcome to 1960 Constitution, all over again.

Then you will join me in condemning TPap for his part, or lack of, in negotiating for a solution...........I wonder what he was up to at the time....He was not out in one of your boats was he????



It took years to put that plan together Kiks........What the hell do you think he did not negotiate properly for???????Come on for gods sake........Is that how you fish as well? You put no bait on the line but expect the fish to come and take the hook and signal when they are on firmly????


I think there was a Makarios thread that you made a few contributions to

Zan,

In general, I'm never too fond of any leader of any Nation, unless they do the peoples work and not just their own ego. The fact that it took years to put the AP together, should tell you something in trying to hide little details here and there. As Nikitas said, 9,000 pages of blah, blah, blah, and all this was dropped at peoples lap few days before the referendum to make an Intelligent assessment about their future, specially when there are 40,000 troops on one side and you don't know what the hell you are agreeing to. I'm sure PapaD more than likely walked into the AP before the final draft, but was he allowed to change anything that he did not like. According to Nikitas, the TC's and the Turks refuse to change anything towards the end, and unless someone can say Nikitas is lying, I'm willing to take his word for it.

No Zan, PapaD was not on my boat....... not unless he was wearing a Red Dress.

How about some blame for the EU. Why on earth they waited for the last minute to have a referendum and entry into the EU at the same time. The RoC was already guaranteed entry, so it gave them the advantage of not having to take a risk on the AP, not knowing all the details. I still believe it was a deliberate act on the EU to take in the RoC and hope that the referendum would fail, so that the EU can always use Cyprus as an excuse to keep Turkey out of the EU, or at least in the short term. I wrote about this last year regarding the RoC being the "Trojan Horse" against Turkey's EU entry plans. Guess what, so far it is working. No Cyprus solution, no entry for Turkey. So don't be so sure every time you complain about RoC lying to get into the EU, as if the other EU members had no idea what was going on. Those guys at the EU must be bunch of "dumb asses" I guess, Zan.

[Nikitas]

Kikapu,

YOu are right on the money about EU using Cyprus and not the other way round. Remember back in the late 80 and early 90s when Greece was the bulwark! Then in 1992 Mitsotakis put them on the spot when he lifted Greece's veto to Turkey's customs union. His not using the veto put a spanner in the works and then countries like Austria, Germany and others started putting forth conditions.