Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

First of all may god have mercy on all who lost their lives during the intercommunal violence and intervention of 1974.

In your opinion, isthere any difference between the ones who lost their lives during the resistance against Enosis and "majority rule" oppression and the ones who lost their lives during the implementation of Akritas Plan in order to achive Enosis and "majority rule"?


Furthermore, Is there any difference between the ones who lost their lives during the intervention while they were fiercly defending the coupists/Greek invasion and the ones who lost their lives during the intervention that aimed to stop fascist coupists not to commit any crimes towards TCs?


If National Guard had defended Cyprus against those coupists with the same severity like they defended coupists and Greek invaders against Turkish intervention; I'm sure there would have been nothing to do for Turkey.


PS: Please don't come up with expressions like "crap", "fantasy", "brain-washing", "propaganda" etc. If you have any arguments put it forth for consideration.

[Piratis]

Majority rule is a basic democratic principle applied in all EU countries. Do you have a problem with it? If you do/did, then you are the wrong doers, and not the ones who wanted democracy in Cyprus.

Furthermore, Is there any difference between the ones who lost their lives during the intervention while they were fiercly defending the coupists/Greek invasion and the ones who lost their lives during the intervention that aimed to stop fascist coupists not to commit any crimes towards TCs?

The aim of the invasion, as now it is proven, was not to stop the coupist, but to illegaly occupy part of Cyprus.

[erolz]

Majority rule is a basic democratic principle applied in all EU countries. Do you have a problem with it? If you do/did, then you are the wrong doers, and not the ones who wanted democracy in Cyprus.

Actually the reality is most EU countries is thst 'largest minority' rules. It is a basic premise of federation that on some issues and at some levels democracy is apllied at the component state level (one c state on vote) and it is perfectly compatible with democratic principals (and boy have we been here a few times before).

Let's just for a moment imagine that what you want is a Cyprus under total effective political control of the GC community alone. Can you see how, if that was your objective, defining 'democracy' in the terms you do above is a means to that end and that actually you could not care about democracy but the results of your defiention of it (ie a Cyprus under somplete effective etc etc) ?

The aim of the invasion, as now it is proven, was not to stop the coupist, but to illegaly occupy part of Cyprus.

The (claimed) aim of the action was to protect TC and their rights as a community - not just to stop the coup. Illegally occupying part of Cyprus was the means to the end (that would be the argument) not the end itself.

[insan]

The aim of the invasion, as now it is proven, was not to stop the coupist, but to illegaly occupy part of Cyprus.

Occupation is continuing because none of the GC leaders have acknowledged the "political equality" of TC community, since 1974.

[Piratis]

Actually the reality is most EU countries is thst 'largest minority' rules.

Actually this makes my point even stronger. Even in your voting some days ago, Talat got something like 44%, so he will probably be your "Prime minister". What if he was getting 51%? What if he was getting 80%? Isn't there a difference between the 5% (smaller minority), the 45% (bigger minority) the 51% majority and the 80% (clear majority)? I believe there is a difference everywhere in this numbers, even in the "TRNC". If there was no difference then democracy wouldn't have a meaning.

Let's just for a moment imagine that what you want is a Cyprus under total effective political control of the GC community alone.

The point is that I don't want such thing. This is why I proposed that TCs should have a boosted representation in the government and a veto power an a number of specific matters. (and specific matters doesn't mean small number of matters)

It is a basic premise of federation that on some issues and at some levels democracy is apllied at the component state level

I agree with this, but just to remind you quickly 2 points:
1) As you said this is applied in some levels, not everywhere.
2) We don't have federation. We can have one if we agree. And if we make the compromise that you can have your own separate component sate (which would mean the violation of some of our human rights), I think it is fair if you make a compromise also and not ask for the maximum power that a federal state can have.

[erolz]

Let's just for a moment imagine that what you want is a Cyprus under total effective political control of the GC community alone.

The point is that I don't want such thing. This is why I proposed that TCs should have a boosted representation in the government and a veto power an a number of specific matters. (and specific matters doesn't mean small number of matters)

I understand and accept that it is not what you want but can you not understand and accept that it could be used (the argument about what democracy means) as a means to an end that DO want these things? (and thus my 'concerns' over such simple black and white arguments that any thing other than majority rule is 'wrong')

I agree with this, but just to remind you quickly 2 points:
1) As you said this is applied in some levels, not everywhere.
2) We don't have federation. We can have one if we agree. And if we make the compromise that you can have your own separate component sate (which would mean the violation of some of our human rights), I think it is fair if you make a compromise also and not ask for the maximum power that a federal state can have.

And we should hang onto this for it is where we are closest to agreement. I do not want on state one vote on ALL issues. I basically want it on those issues that affect the two communites differently. The only bit we disagree about (and its not such a mjor point I think) is how the areas where ti should be one state oe vote are and where they are not. You like pre defined list. I like a statment of principal and if necessary indpendant arbitratiuon.

[insan]

Actually this makes my point even stronger. Even in your voting some days ago, Talat got something like 44%, so he will probably be your "Prime minister". What if he was getting 51%? What if he was getting 80%? Isn't there a difference between the 5% (smaller minority), the 45% (bigger minority) the 51% majority and the 80% (clear majority)? I believe there is a difference everywhere in this numbers, even in the "TRNC". If there was no difference then democracy wouldn't have a meaning.

Piratis, the fact is that we are two communities as you aaknowledged it. We are not like West Germans/East Germans or N Koreans/East Koreans. As a consequence of our past relations we are still GCs and TCs. You can't change this fact by saying we should all feel like Cypriots. If we want to create a Cypriot nation we should start with where we are now. If we can manage to create one Cypriot nation then the majority rule will come into our lives itself.

[Piratis]

You can't change this fact by saying we should all feel like Cypriots.

So you are not Cypriot? I din't say that by being Cypriot you should stop being Turkish Cypriot, just like an American can be a hispanic american, a white american, a black american etc.

[metecyp]

So you are not Cypriot? I din't say that by being Cypriot you should stop being Turkish Cypriot, just like an American can be a hispanic american, a white american, a black american etc.

Being Cypriot is not the issue here. We're all Cypriots with common culture and traditions but at the same time, we're two separate communities. White Americans did not try to unite the US with the UK, for example. So Hispanic Americans do not have to worry about that. Similarly, Black Americans do not have to worry about being discriminated against because they went through a process (civil rights movement) which made such actions unacceptable both at the legal and social level. They also had the last 30-40 years of trial time and now they can be sure that they won't be discriminated. We didn't go through this process and I don't think that we'll truly be one Cypriot nation without such a trial period.