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Lawyer ‘trapped’ by T. Cypriot police

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:50 pm

Viewpoint wrote:I'm sure the Greek Cypriots on the forum will be rejoicing, that these children of satan have been wiped out, and no longer occupy stolen GC property. Just think the English people will now be scared, just another negative point for buying in the north.


No Viewpoint, murder is always murder and the perpetrators of this heinous act must be brought to justice.

It would be very hypocritical if we opposed theft but then we condoned murder.

And also, No, it would be very wrong to go to the thought "Ah, this would scare off potential buyers". If any Greek Cypriots have "gone there" in their minds, they should begin to worry about themselves, because something in their inner make-up is seriously wrong.

As for the two elderly people who were brutally murdered, may they rest in peace - and may their families and loved ones find consolation.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:53 pm

Greek Cypriots on this forum always come accross as being more concerned about the deep roots back their "stolen"properties than life and safety, so one less occupied "stolen" property, should make them happy dont you think???

As for who did it I agree with you but Ill still like to wait and see.
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:15 pm

Erol,

erolz wrote: However if the issue is how easy it may be to return properties to GC after a settlment then Karmi represents a less difficult senario than eslewhere - precisely because the land remains under TRNC 'ownership'. The TRNC - as far as I understand it has made no 'profit' from these properties - yet have found a way for them to be maintained, looked after and in most cases substaintialy improved - whilst still keeping 'ownership' that could make their transfer back to pre 74 owners a lot easier than where title deeds have been issued (almost everywhere else in the North).


I agree with you here. In my mind, giving temporary leases for GC properties in the north is a very acceptable approach under the current circumstances. In fact, it is a pity that the Karmi approach was not also done elsewhere, and furthermore it is a pity that the Guardian of Turkish Cypriot Properties in the south has not employed a similar method to maintain TC properties in an acceptable state and raise rental income to be returned to original owners after a comprehensive settlement, along with their properties.

It would have been so simple to write contracts so that leases would last, say, for 30 years, and if a Comprehensive Settlement was found before then, the non-Cypriot lease holder would be compensated for the remaining value of his lease.

Instead, Greek Cypriot properties in the north have been sold off while Turkish Cypriot properties in the south have been left to become derelict.

erolz wrote:I understand how sensative and emotional the property issue is to GC. I do not seek to 'belittle' this position at all. I am just confused why Karmi seems to attact so much GC attention (and anger) when in fact comparatively it represents a 'better' possibility for the return of properties following a settlement. There is much evidence that Karmi has attacted a disproprotionate degree of GC attention and I am trying to understand why this is the case.


You are right to point out that this focus on Karmi is not rational.

I think this "mutual animosity" between GCs and non-Cypriot residents of Karmi began only days after the lifting of restrictions in April 2003: In those days, the GC TV channels were filled with stories about how GCs would go to their original homes and be greeted graciously by Turkish Cypriot residents, how they would be given back their family photo albums which the Turkish Cypriot resident had meticulously kept, and dozens of other very touching stories of reconciliation. Amidst this background, a Greek Cypriot attempted to visit his house in Karmi, and was thrown out by an english woman who lived in it, and who in fact threatened to call the police. That event sent out ripples of rage amongst the GC community, who were somehow reconfirmed in their deep belief that "it is the foreigners who are the real enemies, we Cypriots were getting along fine before they came to mix us up" - you know, divide and rule, the cold war, CIA's involvement, Nixon etc. etc. I don't personally subscribe to this total "let's blame the foreigners approach", I am just reporting to you how it was thought out by the majority of Greek Cypriots. So, from that day on, Karmi became a hated symbol of foreign exploitation. The Karmi residents kept up the oppositional approach, thus making matters even worse.

You were counselling me in the other thread that "anger leads to the dark side". What you say is true. I am not afraid of my own anger so much, because I know myself to be able to put limits to it, so I just use anger to maintain a sense of what is right and what is wrong - rather than attacking and destroying "the wrong-doer". I am, however, afraid of the anger of people who cannot control their instinctual urges, because they are indeed capable of criminal action.
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Postby erolz » Sat Mar 05, 2005 3:22 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Greek Cypriots on this forum always come accross as being more concerned about the deep roots back their "stolen"properties than life and safety, so one less occupied "stolen" property, should make them happy dont you think???


No I do not think this. I think it is insulting to GC to say they would be happy to hear that 2 elderly and respected people were murdered. If there had been any response from GC here that indicated such 'happiness' at this tradgic event then your comments may have some justification. There has been no such comment at all and as such your coments seem and feel to me to be nothing more than an attempt to try and 'score political points' using this tradgic event - and as I said before are to me distastful in that regard. This shows no respect for these people or for any family they leave behind.

Viewpoint wrote:As for who did it I agree with you but Ill still like to wait and see.


Why mention any link with the south then, when there is no evidence of a connection? You _chose_ to mention a link between this horriffic murder and the south. The only motivation I can see for mentioning a connection to the south is to try and 'score a point'. This kind of behaviour brings no honour to you or to the TC cause and is an insult to the memory of these people in my humble personal opinion. I think I will now have to leave this topic before I too lose my temper - something I have no wish to do.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:10 pm

Relax,erolz if you have read many posts in this forum you will know the attitude of greek cypriots towards the english community and property issues in the north, so dont get on you high horse and preach to me, about scoring political points. Theres nothing to score points about its just that bad attitude that ouzzes out of certain greek cypriots on this forum that we are all thieves and living in stolen property makes me sick. GCs have on a number of occassion stated clearly that the English community will get whats due them for buying GC properties, visits from lawyers, threats, law suits, siezure of uk property, international arrest warrants and whatever else might come to mind??? are these all acts of goodwill and reconciliation towards a solution???

So you go have an orta kahve and relax. :)
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Postby insan » Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:17 pm

Instead, Greek Cypriot properties in the north have been sold off while Turkish Cypriot properties in the south have been left to become derelict.



Alexandros;

Do we have any reliable statistical data concerning proprty issue that puts the whole picture in front of us? No.

"The relevant GC laws specify that Turkish Cypriot land can only be used for public projects. But Mustafa’s land was subsequently sold as building plots going for between £9,000 and £13,000 a piece – though one sold for as high as £34,000 – not only to locals but also foreigners." Cyprus Mail - 2003


What amount of TC land and properties in South have been sold to locals and foreigners?

What amount of TC land and properties have been expropriated and was there an intention to expropriate the most valubale lands of TCs?

What amount of TC land and properties have been kept in good conditions and even invested by GCs?

What amount of land and properties have been derelicted?


What amount of GC land and properties in North have been sold to locals and foreigners?

What amount of GC land and properties have been expropriated and was there an intention to expropriate the most valubale lands of GCs?

What amount of GC land and properties have been kept in good conditions and even invested by TCs in the North?

What amount of GC land and properties have been derelicted in North?

What amount of GC properties and land have been given to the settlers?



Do we know the answers of these questiones? Should we know the answers of these questiones before settling this issue? Although this issue should have been settled after they signed the 3rd Vienna Agreement, why don't the relevant parties still take no initiatives to settle this issue? They wait for a comprehensive settlement to be reached? By whom? By those incapable politicians?
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Postby erolz » Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:32 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Relax,erolz if you have read many posts in this forum you will know the attitude of greek cypriots towards the english community and property issues in the north,


I have been on this forum longer than yourself. I have also raised the issue of attitudes to non cypriots living in the north from GC and the problems these attitudes may cause.

Viewpoint wrote:so dont get on you high horse and preach to me, about scoring political points. Theres nothing to score points about its just that bad attitude that ouzzes out of certain greek cypriots on this forum that we are all thieves and living in stolen property makes me sick.


Then imo you should make your points on these issues in relation to posts that show such an attitude. You should not take a post about a tradgic event not related to these points and twist it to this purpose. Doing so does nothing to enhance the strenght of your arguments and is alos disrespectful to the memory of these people.

Viewpoint wrote:GCs have on a number of occassion stated clearly that the English community will get whats due them for buying GC properties, visits from lawyers, threats, law suits, siezure of uk property, international arrest warrants and whatever else might come to mind??? are these all acts of goodwill and reconciliation towards a solution???


And this means then that you can accuse them of being 'happy' that two elderly and kindly souls were murderd in the north? You are simply destroying any 'valid' argument you may have that these views are not right or fair when you make such accusations as you do (that because they have an animosity towards ex pats here it must mean they are happy when they get brutaly murderd).

I get upset and angry at some (GC) indivduals here. Does that mean that I would be happy if they were murdered? No it does not. If they were to get murdered and someone was to tell me I must be happy that it happened I would be extremely upset by such comments. Why then is it accpetable to do this to GC? Or is it your view that any slur, any accusation can be aimed at GC - fair or not, with any supporting evidence or not, simply because they are GC?

Viewpoint wrote:So you go have an orta kahve and relax. :)


Or maybe I will go away and try and relax and not get more upset by not only your using of a tradgey (unrealted to GC) to attack GC and your condesinding attitude towards me for 'challenging' you over such behaviour.
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Postby Saint Jimmy » Sat Mar 05, 2005 4:59 pm

Respect to Erol...

It's comforting to know Alex is not alone up there. It gives us hope.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:31 pm

What goes around comes around :wink:
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Postby donyork » Sat Mar 05, 2005 5:43 pm

The young man who has been arrested in connection with their murder was their gardener. This has nothing do with the Cyprus problem, but is the kind of tragedy that happens all over the world all the time. It has no place on this forum. Could we therefore drop it.
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