Cyprus-Forum.com

[free_cyprus]

if you had two cyprus pounds in money one pound in coin form

the other in paper note form in your pocket

can anyone in this forum tell me which one is more valuble

Scrap value of the coin is greater........

anything is more valuble when one does not see the valid question put forth shame you missed it zan adn you ended up in the scrap yard

Mate....I get you OK! I get what you are saying and the place where you are at. I am sorry but I cannot get there without my brothers by my side. I want to live like a TC and being one is the only way. I am fed up of holding the higher ground. It really gets you nowhere if your opponent does not come to you. Sorry but that is the way I see it. Some of us can dream and some can philosophise but I prefer to get my hands dirty. I just cannot let your sadness take me over and believe me I can fell your sadness...

zan then i openly say bollox to them all who think they are turkish and greek cypriots
i rather have no identity and be a cypriot as a cypriot then to become one of them turkish or greek cypriots

and if it means standing alone than im more then happy in my own campany to stand alone in my identity as a cypriot

Your way seems to be to always find the easy road...Even if it is not the right road. I intend to stay for the ride and say bollocks to each and every one of them....I do not wish to change them into something that they are not though.....

you said something incredibly intelligent there parhaps your not aware of what you sais but i will tell you this much you want to stay on as you are to say bollox to them all and you dont want to change them but what is the most important thing of all your not willing to change yourself , and the people your talkign about has the same stoborness and blindness regarding cyprus and this si where we are right now regarding cyprus

[MR-from-NG]

and a longer historical presence on this island, wHat do you think the island would look like now?

Exactly the same but with less graves

Good point! There would've been no 74 invasion so that's 6,000 dead less and let's not forget...

Throughout the period of Venetian rule, Ottoman Turks raided and attacked at will. In 1489, the first year of Venetian control, Turks attacked the Karpas Peninsula, pillaging and taking captives to be sold into slavery. In 1539 the Turkish fleet attacked and destroyed Limassol. Fearing the ever-expanding Ottoman Empire, the Venetians had fortified Famagusta, Nicosia, and Kyrenia, but most other cities were easy prey.

In the summer of 1570, the Turks struck again, but this time with a full-scale invasion rather than a raid. About 60,000 troops, including cavalry and artillery, under the command of Lala Mustafa Pasha landed unopposed near Limassol on July 2, 1570, and laid siege to Nicosia. In an orgy of victory on the day that the city fell--September 9, 1570--20,000 Nicosians were put to death, and every church, public building, and palace was looted. Word of the massacre spread, and a few days later Mustafa took Kyrenia without having to fire a shot. Famagusta, however, resisted and put up a heroic defense that lasted from September 1570 until August 1571.

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?f ... CID+cy0017)

Good to see you back MR-from-NG...

Good to be back GR How did I know you'd come up with those statistics

Mate forget 1570, surely you cant hold my generation responsible for that era. Sad as it may be the 6000 deaths suffered by the GCs is the direct result of your communities actions. So, in essence there would have been less graves if indeed we (TCs) were an 82% majority.

[Nikitas]

Viewpoint asked about the Turks of Crete.

The Turkish minority of the island was finally removed under the 1923 exchange of populations provisions of the Treaty of Lausanne. Before that, especially in the last half of the 19th century Crete went through a process of rebelliion against Ottoman rule. Coincidentally, it happened about the same time that other Ottoman possessions in the Balkans, like Bulgaria, rebelled and sought independence. It was not a unique case.

There was no genocide in Crete. There were clashes between the two communities and casualties from the several attempts by Turkish troops to control the Greek insurrection. Crete effectively united with Greece by 1900, yet there were still Turks living on the island to be removed by the treaty of Lausanne in 1923. That is proof enough that there was no "genocide" under Greek control.

It is also interesting that the minority was removed with Turkey's initiative. Something that did not happen with the Turks of Kos and Rodos because these islands reverted to Greece from Italian control after World War II. Turkey did not have possession or say in the matter, thus did not have the chance to apply its usual method of forced population movements. Where it did have control, like Imvros and Tenedos, the results were catastrophic for the local population and in Istanbul they were even worse.

[CopperLine]

Nikitas,
These historical comparisons are useful and informative but the 1923 Lausanne Exchange was, of course, more than you described.

Lausanne was a treaty which organised a massive population 'exchange' principally between Greece and the new Turkey. The original idea for the exchange came from Lord Curzon who had much experience of the "unmixing of populations" not least from his days as Viceroy of India. Both sets of negotiators - led respectively by Venizelos and Izmet - were perversely enthusiastic to take uo Curzon's proposal of population exchange as a means of resolving and settling the recent Greco-Turkish war - a great disaster or the war of indepencee, depending.

The human suffering produced by Lausanne was extraordinary and it was certainly not limited to Turkey expelling 'Greeks'. The deal was that Greece should expel 'Turks'. And what was the main criteria for determining who was what ? Language ? No. Custom ? No. 'Citizenship' ? No. "national feeling' ? No. The principakl criterion was professed religion. As a result Greek-speaking Muslims were expelled from Greece where they had resided for time immemorial, and Turkish speaking Christians from deep in Anatolia were similarly expelled.

In my view Lausanne was one the greatest legalised crimes of the twentieth century and certainly the greatest single disaster to be visited on this region in that century, the consequences of which we still live with today.

[Nikitas]

Copperline,

I know what you mean by the hardships imposed by the treaty of Lausanne. I met people of Albanian descent whose ancestors lived in Ioannina in northern Greece in 1923 and had to move to Turkey because they were moslems.

On the other hand parts of the treaty are the foundation and reference point of today's territorial settlements. It is regarded by Greece as vital and is constantly referred to in any discussion on international frontiers.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint asked about the Turks of Crete.

The Turkish minority of the island was finally removed under the 1923 exchange of populations provisions of the Treaty of Lausanne. Before that, especially in the last half of the 19th century Crete went through a process of rebelliion against Ottoman rule. Coincidentally, it happened about the same time that other Ottoman possessions in the Balkans, like Bulgaria, rebelled and sought independence. It was not a unique case.

There was no genocide in Crete. There were clashes between the two communities and casualties from the several attempts by Turkish troops to control the Greek insurrection. Crete effectively united with Greece by 1900, yet there were still Turks living on the island to be removed by the treaty of Lausanne in 1923. That is proof enough that there was no "genocide" under Greek control.

It is also interesting that the minority was removed with Turkey's initiative. Something that did not happen with the Turks of Kos and Rodos because these islands reverted to Greece from Italian control after World War II. Turkey did not have possession or say in the matter, thus did not have the chance to apply its usual method of forced population movements. Where it did have control, like Imvros and Tenedos, the results were catastrophic for the local population and in Istanbul they were even worse.

End result?? No Turks end of story.

Which ever you put it if you hand over an island to Greece there is a high risk that we could have faced the same fate under worse or better terms. If you are unable to see the risk and fear this would and did bring about in the TCs then you are being bloody minded for the sake of it. Enosis was the worst idea ever especially at a time when we had the oportunity to achieve what so many so called "Cypriots" call for oday to build a nation but instead the GCs had their fingers crossed when they signed the 1960 agreements as they felt it was a stepping stone to giving Cyprus to Greece, thats where the GCs messed up big time and shoudl be looking to rectify the situation not come out on top with lame excuses and lots of hot air.

[Nikitas]

VP

That was in the 60s with a mindset from the 1920s and before. Things have changed. When was the last time a mainland Greek politician or Greek Cypriot has referred to Enosis ? I live in Greece and can tell you that Cyprus as a whole is a non issue here. A case in point, the Republic of Cyprus is rebuilding one of the villages burnt in the recent fires. It is a 5 million pound project. It got less TV time than the pregnancy of a local minor TV personality.

Your present mind set reminds me of Greek Cypriots of the 50s and 60s, when everything was narrowed to Enosis. Does that not tell you something?

[Viewpoint]

VP

That was in the 60s with a mindset from the 1920s and before. Things have changed. When was the last time a mainland Greek politician or Greek Cypriot has referred to Enosis ? I live in Greece and can tell you that Cyprus as a whole is a non issue here. A case in point, the Republic of Cyprus is rebuilding one of the villages burnt in the recent fires. It is a 5 million pound project. It got less TV time than the pregnancy of a local minor TV personality.

Your present mind set reminds me of Greek Cypriots of the 50s and 60s, when everything was narrowed to Enosis. Does that not tell you something?

Thats how we see Gcs with the same mindset of the 50s and 60s because you have not taken any steps to change our opinion all we still see is the stubborn despot GC who would stop the air we breath if they had the chance and nothing else. The éRoC" imo has to take drastic measure to win over the TCs becuase their current policies only continue to push us in to the lao of Turkey.

[Nikitas]

VP the ball is in your court. Can you give some examples of what steps the RoC can take to demonstrate that it has genuine intentions?

[Viewpoint]

VP the ball is in your court. Can you give some examples of what steps the RoC can take to demonstrate that it has genuine intentions?

Working with the TRNC to solve property matters for both GCs and TCs, by using the property commission, allowing direct trade and flights without recognition of the TRNC. There are plenty of steps if there is a will and obviously the GC do no thave the will or the vision to win over the TCs.