Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Tassos, his crew and their crowdy backers list:

1- End of occupation and withdrawal of all Turkish troops.
2- Return of all refugees and restitution of GC refugees by Turkey.
3- A GC state based on democratic principles, i.e; "majority rule".
4- Repatriation of most of the settlers.
5- No-bi zonality. All refugees will return to their ancestral properties and lands.
6- Nullification of treaty of guarantee and treaty of alliance.


We have heard all of these, many times clearly stated by T-Pap and affirmed by majority of GCs; besides Greece.

Now can someone tell me whether there is something I've misunderstood or missed?

If I've gathered it correctly; is there any possibility to reunite Cyprus?

[Alexandros Lordos]

1- End of occupation and withdrawal of all Turkish troops.
2- Return of all refugess and restitution of GC refugees by Turkey.
3- A GC state based on democratic principles, i.e; "majority rule".
4- Repatriation of most of the settlers.
5- No-bi zonality. All refugees will return to their ancestral properties and lands.
6- Nullification of treaty of guarantee and treaty of alliance.

Now can someone tell me whether there is something I've misunderstood or missed?

Insan,

I think you are confusing the GC "ideal wish list" with the GC negotiating position and "maximum tolerance limit".

While most GCs would like to see most of the things on your list, very few would actually insist on all of them, there is a willingness to compromise in order to take into account the TC position.

Let's take your points one-by-one:

1. End of occupation/withdrawal of all Turkish Troops - No question about that. This is a must in GC minds.

2. Return of all refugees and compensation by Turkey - this is also a must for the great majority, though moderate limitations to restitution might just about be tolerated, if it can be shown that they are absolutely necessary.

3. A GC state based on majority rule - No Insan, we don't live in the clouds. That is why even those who do not like Federation much, tend to talk about agreed partition rather than all Cyprus becoming a GC state. GCs might have liked a simple majority situation, but they know this issue is critical to TCs and therefore they won't insist.

4. Repatriation of most of the Settlers - Yes, this is a must to almost every GC. Perhaps a combination of compulsory repatriation plus voluntary departures through incentives might do the trick here (a noteworthy point here: The idea I have posted in another thread, that settlers should be granted Green Cards if they so wish so that they can emigrate to the US, has actually been floated by the Americans a couple of years ago. Guess what? Denktash thought it was absolutely unacceptable, saying that "these are my citizens, and you can't take them away from me"...)

5. No Bizonality - All refugees to return. Insan, that's not the way it would work. Even if all refugees returned there would still be effective bizonality. I've illustrated the maths of this in another thread and I won't repeat myself here. Our side has been aware of this ever since 1977, otherwise we wouldn't have signed the high level agreements, but you guys have been brainwashed by Denktash into thinking that if all refugees return it will be the end of bizonality. It will be the end of apartheid, that's for sure, but it won't be the end of bizonality, or of a TC majority in the north as per the 1977 and 1979 agreements.

6. Nullification of treaty of guarantee - Most GCs would love to see this happen, however it is widely accepted that it is very difficult to happen. So the thinking of most is focusing on how to limit intervention rights so that they are not a threat to GC security, rather than annuling the Treaty of Guarantee. However, I think that if we can find a mutually satisfactory alternative system of security, we should certainly pursue it, together.

[Piratis]

Ok, so I guess your idea of unification doesn't include what you wrote above. So unification according to you is:

1. Not an end of occupation
2. No return of all refugees and no compensation
3. A state based on non democratic principles
4. The settlers to stay
5. Bi-zonality. TCs on one side, GCs on the other
6. Continuation of the right of other countries to intervene.

So this is the "unification" you want us to accept?

[brother]

1. withdrawal of all millatary on BOTH sides, this has to be two way traffic.

2.Return of refugees where possible or compensation.

3.Democratic country but with guarantees protecting the TC

4.Only settlers that are married to TC or have been living there for over 20 years.

5.that has to be seen if it can work imo.

6.Not acceptable but remember tc would have been wiped out if turkey had not intervened and likely many more gc would have died at the hands of EOKA.

That seems more workable but feel free to throw in your own wish list that is not sarcastic.

[Alexandros Lordos]

feel free to throw in your own wish list.

Wish list? OK, here goes ...

1. Social integration - ability to live side by side as neighbors, friends, colleagues, in the same schools, businesses, political parties, trade unions.

2. Political equality on every level - no majority / minority complexes to develop in the federal government or in the constituent states.

3. Right of return - for Greek Cypriots and for Turkish Cypriots, but with a measure of protection for current occupants.

4. A sovereign security system - Cypriots to eventually take care of their own defense, but with appropriate interim measures to alleviate the concerns of everyone involved.

5. Economic viability - those who preach that we must move on and solve our problem should also be willing to dig into their own pockets. Free market limitations should be reduced to the minimum that is necessary.

That's all I can think of, at the moment ...

[insan]

1- End of occupation and withdrawal of all Turkish troops.
2- Return of all refugess and restitution of GC refugees by Turkey.
3- A GC state based on democratic principles, i.e; "majority rule".
4- Repatriation of most of the settlers.
5- No-bi zonality. All refugees will return to their ancestral properties and lands.
6- Nullification of treaty of guarantee and treaty of alliance.

Now can someone tell me whether there is something I've misunderstood or missed?

Insan,

I think you are confusing the GC "ideal wish list" with the GC negotiating position and "maximum tolerance limit".

No, I'm not confusing them, Alexandros. That's what I and all of us are still hearing and reading what comes from the other side's leadership and most of the GCs participate on this forum and other discussion forums.

While most GCs would like to see most of the things on your list, very few would actually insist on all of them, there is a willingness to compromise in order to take into account the TC position.

The things I've been hearing from GC leadership and the attitudes of most of the GCs I've witnessed so far, telling me the opposite of what you are saying.

Let's take your points one-by-one:

1. End of occupation/withdrawal of all Turkish Troops - No question about that. This is a must in GC minds.

Is there a little space in their minds for TCs must as well. Something like gradual demilitarization of Cyprus, for example. Including the gradual reduction of National Guard. I haven't heard GC leadership or any groups of GCs refering just a single word about it.

2. Return of all refugees and compensation by Turkey - this is also a must for the great majority, though moderate limitations to restitution might just about be tolerated, if it can be shown that they are absolutely necessary.

Is de-facto partition and ongoing occupation just Turkey's fault? Yes according to GC leadership and their biased history books it is and overwhelming majority of GCs suppose it is true and put all the blame on Turkey and point her the only responsible of the damage and loss of use of GC refugees. The fact is that Turkey had left no choice other than a de-facto partition in 1974. Ask Clerides, Stavrinides, Markidis those whom their books are banned or accused of being the traitors. The 30 years of ongoing occupation is not Turkey's fault. Which leader of GC community did acknowledge the "political equality" of TC community. Which leader of GC community have put forth the idea that withdrawal of all turkish troops is not fair and feasible under the circumstances, therefore a gradual reduction of military presence on both sides was the most feasible under the circumstances.

But according to your leadership and deluded majority; Turkey is the only responsible because of the 30 years of ongoing occupation and have to compensate all GC refugees.

3. A GC state based on majority rule - No Insan, we don't live in the clouds. That is why even those who do not like Federation much, tend to talk about agreed partition rather than all Cyprus becoming a GC state. GCs might have liked a simple majority situation, but they know this issue is critical to TCs and therefore they won't insist.

Alexandros, I'm not hearing and seeing-impaired. In every sppech of Tassos, he bases his arguments upon democrasy and human rights of each individual who are citizens of Cyprus. You can't find just a single statement made by Tassos based upon the acknowledgement of "poltical equality" of two communities. While there are just 3 or 4 GCs here on this board support "political equality" of two communities; all others are against it. And if you visit all other Greek and GC dominated discussion boards, you'll see that none of them support the idea of "political equality" of two communities.

4. Repatriation of most of the Settlers - Yes, this is a must to almost every GC. Perhaps a combination of compulsory repatriation plus voluntary departures through incentives might do the trick here (a noteworthy point here: The idea I have posted in another thread, that settlers should be granted Green Cards if they so wish so that they can emigrate to the US, has actually been floated by the Americans a couple of years ago. Guess what? Denktash thought it was absolutely unacceptable, saying that "these are my citizens, and you can't take them away from me"...)

I'm not against what you've offered but hiding behind the laws and forcing them to leave Cyprus is not fair. On the other hand don't forget that they are the naturalized citizens of a de-facto administrtaion. I also want most of them to repatriated but not because they are "illegal". Because they occupy GC properties for free and compensating, relocating, building new homes for them will raise the cost of reunification.

5. No Bizonality - All refugees to return. Insan, that's not the way it would work. Even if all refugees returned there would still be effective bizonality. I've illustrated the maths of this in another thread and I won't repeat myself here. Our side has been aware of this ever since 1977, otherwise we wouldn't have signed the high level agreements, but you guys have been brainwashed by Denktash into thinking that if all refugees return it will be the end of bizonality. It will be the end of apartheid, that's for sure, but it won't be the end of bizonality, or of a TC majority in the north as per the 1977 and 1979 agreements.

Alexandros, according to the many sources GC refugges was constituting 1/3 of GC population pre-74. Today they should still have constituted at least 1/3 of GC population. Their approx. number should be around 250.000 - 300.000.

Let's say 50.000 settlers repatriated in 10 years time and 150.000 refugees + 50 non refugees returned/settled to TCCS.. and let's suppose some 20.000 TCs returned from abroad and settled down to TCCS. The population ratio in TCCs would have been composed by 2.25 TCs/2 GCs. It is obvious that there's a hardcore opposition against all kinds of "ethnic discrimination". It is obvious that they will demand their full political rights. They will demand exactly the same rights which the TC residents of TCCS have. How you can be so optimistic that they would compromise on their political rights while they shout that restricting their political rights is an ethnic discrimination. The ones who consider that we are all Cypriots, not two communities on political level and should have the same political rights as the citizens of Cyprus; are still constituting the majority among GCs. Is my counter-argument sounds like Denkash's. If not I'm looking forward to hear your apologies regarding the "brain-washing" part.

6. Nullification of treaty of guarantee - Most GCs would love to see this happen, however it is widely accepted that it is very difficult to happen. So the thinking of most is focusing on how to limit intervention rights so that they are not a threat to GC security, rather than annuling the Treaty of Guarantee. However, I think that if we can find a mutually satisfactory alternative system of security, we should certainly pursue it, together.

I'm well aware of what GC leadership consider as "limiting intervention" right of Turkey is nothing else than nullification of Turkish guarantee. We are all aware of what Tassos, his crew and backers wants. In my opinion, there's nothing new on Hellenic side. They have been running after the same things since 1963 and even 1930.

Anyway, sometime around this year we will all more clearly witness that what Tassos, his crew and backers want are the things I've put forward.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Alexandros, according to the many sources GC refugges was constituting 1/3 of GC population pre-74. Today they should still have constituted at least 1/3 of GC population. Their approx. number should be around 250.000 - 300.000.

Let's say 50.000 settlers repatriated in 10 years time and 150.000 refugees + 50 non refugees returned/settled to TCCS.. and let's suppose some 20.000 TCs returned from abroad and settled down to TCCS. The population ratio in TCCs would have been composed by 2.25 TCs/2 GCs. It is obvious that there's a hardcore opposition against all kinds of "ethnic discrimination". It is obvious that they will demand their full political rights. They will demand exactly the same rights which the TC residents of TCCS have. How you can be so optimistic that they would compromise on their political rights while they shout that restricting their political rights is an ethnic discrimination. The ones who consider that we are all Cypriots, not two communities on political level and should have the same political rights as the citizens of Cyprus; are still constituting the majority among GCs. Is my counter-argument sounds like Denkash's. If not I'm looking forward to hear your apologies regarding the "brain-washing" part.

Check your maths, Insan ...

More than half the refugees would be able to return under GC administration, through territorial adjustment. Only about 70,000 to 80,000 would still have homes that fall within TC administration. So even if all of them return, they will not be more than one third of the overall TC population.

As for Tassos and his intentions, I do not know if you are right or not; we shall soon see. What is truly important now is for you to truly understand and respect what the GC people want, because personally I have not been hearing many TCs telling me that "Yes, you have a point, you are right to be concerned about this and that". The moment we voice a complaint, any complaint, you accuse us of wanting to ... exterminate you. When will this end? When will you just sit and listen to our concerns, and say, OK, I see your problem?

As for the attitude of GCs in discussion boards, do not be misled: They are far from a representative sample. In fact, in statistics we call this kind of grouping a self-selecting sample, and deem it totally unreliable for any generalised conclusions.

[Othellos]

Insan wrote:

Tassos, his crew and their crowdy backers list:

1- End of occupation and withdrawal of all Turkish troops.
2- Return of all refugees and restitution of GC refugees by Turkey.
3- A GC state based on democratic principles, i.e; "majority rule".
4- Repatriation of most of the settlers.
5- No-bi zonality. All refugees will return to their ancestral properties and lands.
6- Nullification of treaty of guarantee and treaty of alliance.

Insan,

If we want true reunification (no quotes) then what we need is a WIN_WIN solution. In other words, we cannot have a GC WIN / TC LOSE situation just as we cannot have a GC LOSE / TC WIN situation. Simple as that.

The trick is how we get there? Alexandros and Brother have already made some interesting (and reasonable) suggestions. Provided that we all try to free ourselves from our past and start treating one another in a fair and respectful way, do you still think that a win-win solution is an impossible task to achieve?

O.

[insan]

Insan wrote:

Tassos, his crew and their crowdy backers list:

1- End of occupation and withdrawal of all Turkish troops.
2- Return of all refugees and restitution of GC refugees by Turkey.
3- A GC state based on democratic principles, i.e; "majority rule".
4- Repatriation of most of the settlers.
5- No-bi zonality. All refugees will return to their ancestral properties and lands.
6- Nullification of treaty of guarantee and treaty of alliance.

Insan,

If we want true reunification (no quotes) then what we need is a WIN_WIN solution. In other words, we cannot have a GC WIN / TC LOSE situation just as we cannot have a GC LOSE / TC WIN situation. Simple as that.

The trick is how we get there? Alexandros and Brother have already made some interesting (and reasonable) suggestions. Provided that we all try to free ourselves from our past and start treating one another in a fair and respectful way, do you still think that a win-win solution is an impossible task to achieve?

O.

Othellos,

I also put forward my win-win solution suggestions under the topic, "How can we solve it?". This does not change the facts revolving around us out of control of some individuals like us.

[insan]

Alexandros, according to the many sources GC refugges was constituting 1/3 of GC population pre-74. Today they should still have constituted at least 1/3 of GC population. Their approx. number should be around 250.000 - 300.000.

Let's say 50.000 settlers repatriated in 10 years time and 150.000 refugees + 50 non refugees returned/settled to TCCS.. and let's suppose some 20.000 TCs returned from abroad and settled down to TCCS. The population ratio in TCCs would have been composed by 2.25 TCs/2 GCs. It is obvious that there's a hardcore opposition against all kinds of "ethnic discrimination". It is obvious that they will demand their full political rights. They will demand exactly the same rights which the TC residents of TCCS have. How you can be so optimistic that they would compromise on their political rights while they shout that restricting their political rights is an ethnic discrimination. The ones who consider that we are all Cypriots, not two communities on political level and should have the same political rights as the citizens of Cyprus; are still constituting the majority among GCs. Is my counter-argument sounds like Denkash's. If not I'm looking forward to hear your apologies regarding the "brain-washing" part.

Check your maths, Insan ...

More than half the refugees would be able to return under GC administration, through territorial adjustment. Only about 70,000 to 80,000 would still have homes that fall within TC administration. So even if all of them return, they will not be more than one third of the overall TC population.

As for Tassos and his intentions, I do not know if you are right or not; we shall soon see. What is truly important now is for you to truly understand and respect what the GC people want, because personally I have not been hearing many TCs telling me that "Yes, you have a point, you are right to be concerned about this and that". The moment we voice a complaint, any complaint, you accuse us of wanting to ... exterminate you. When will this end? When will you just sit and listen to our concerns, and say, OK, I see your problem?

As for the attitude of GCs in discussion boards, do not be misled: They are far from a representative sample. In fact, in statistics we call this kind of grouping a self-selecting sample, and deem it totally unreliable for any generalised conclusions.

Alexandros,

Are you agree that 1/3 of the GC population comprise of GC refugees. what is 1/3 of GC population? 270.000 - 300.000?

90.000 - 120.000 would return to the land that would be returned to GC administration. Where will return the rest 180.000 - 200.000?

We are speaking 10-15 years time periods... how many non-refugee GC will demand freedom of movement, right to buy property and settle in TCCS with full political rights that every Cypriot residents of TCCS have?



What percentage of GCs believe that restrictions on free movement, political rights, right to buy property and residence in other constituent state don't constitute an ethnic-discrimination but is a must to preserve communal quality, communal interests of each communities?

Answer: Not more than %30.