Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

because personally I have not been hearing many TCs telling me that "Yes, you have a point, you are right to be concerned about this and that".

I may not be 'many' but here goes.

Should GC be concrened with getting back property they lost in 74? Yes of course they should

Should GC be concerned with having the freedom to live in any part of Cyprus? Yes of course they should

Should GC be concerned with having political representation? Yes of course they should - though personaly I do not see why they can not have political representation at the federal level as part of their own component state regardless of which component state they actually live in (if such a situation can be made compatible with existing ECHR rules)

Should GC be concerned with the presense of Turkish troops in Cyprus? Yes of course they should.

Should GC be concerned that Turkish troops in Cyprus may decided to invade the RoC? No I personally do not think they should but expressing such a concern can be good propaganda.

Should GC be concerned that any solution is a structuraly functional as possible? Yes of course they should.

Should GC be concerned with TC community having an equal status and rights in a federal based solution? Excluding the previous concern ,and again in my personal opinion, no they should not - especially if they are sincere about talk of 'unity'.

Should GC be concerned with Turkish mainland settlers being allowed to carry on living in Cyprus - seperate from the issue of them occupying property owned by GC prior to 74? No they should not.

I have no problem with accpeting most of the GC concerns. Where I have a problem is when a view is presented that these (GC concerns) are the ONLY issues that need addressing.

The moment we voice a complaint, any complaint, you accuse us of wanting to ... exterminate you. When will this end? When will you just sit and listen to our concerns, and say, OK, I see your problem?

[I am assuming a plural 'you' in the above quote]

That's a little melodramatic is it not? If you had said 'wanting to .... effectively control Cyprus and TC' then perhaps I would not see it as such a melodratic statement - but exterminate?

How many GC do you see saying 'OK I see your problem' when TC voice a complaint - any complaint? Do you think it is 'many'?

The reality is that when ever we talk of our _core_ issue of 'equality of commnites in cyprus' as an expression of our rights to self determination we are almost always met not with 'OK I see your problem'. Mostly we are met with - you have no such rights, this is no excuse for stealing our land (which none of us have ever said anyway), you are just thieves, all you want is to take away GC rights, you do not want 'true' unity, you do not want 'true' democracy, you just want to oppress GC, you want four times as much power for a TC as for a GC and other such responses that are very far from 'OK I see your problem'.

See my (our) problem ?

[insan]

Alexandros wrote:

because personally I have not been hearing many TCs telling me that "Yes, you have a point, you are right to be concerned about this and that".

Many TCs were saying that "Yes, you have a point, you are right to be concerned about this and that" during the negotiation process prior to referanda. But GC leadership prefered to base their negotiation arguments on "European Solution" thesis and didn't exrert any effort to compromise on the feasible prposals of Turkish side. Now some of the GCs assert why TCs don't want to see our concerns. On this forum many TCs listened to your complaints and made some suggestions which met your concerns. The recent one can be found under the topic "Cyprus Problem: How can we solve it?"

The fact is that a few individuals of this forum who can understand each other fairly good cannot change the Tassos stance insisting on "European Solution" and the counter-stance of Turkish side. Turkish side does not consider "European Solution" feasible under the present circumstances. They believe that they accomplished their duty during the final negotiation process and if Tassos who wasted his time basing his arguments on "European Solution" and didn't exert any efforts to put his feasible proposals on the table, during the negotiation process; now has to tell Turkish side what are his feasible proposals that he thinks they would make Annan Plan fairer and more viable.


Now Tassos say: "No I won't say what my complaints are until you return to the table."

- Why?
- If I say you'll learn and never come to the negotiation table.
- Hmmm... you mean there are thing that we will not like to negotiate?
- Yes.
- so why do you call us to come to the negotiaiton table, for another fruitless waste of time?
- No. This time I have some friends together with me whom I trust very much that strong enough to convince you to accept everything I demand.
- Hmmm... you are trying to sustain the "European Solution" game?
- Yes! Yes! How do you know re?
- Errrmm, you have never hide it from us.
-

[Alexandros Lordos]

because personally I have not been hearing many TCs telling me that "Yes, you have a point, you are right to be concerned about this and that".

I may not be 'many' but here goes.

Should GC be concrened with getting back property they lost in 74? Yes of course they should

Should GC be concerned with having the freedom to live in any part of Cyprus? Yes of course they should

Should GC be concerned with having political representation? Yes of course they should

Should GC be concerned with the presense of Turkish troops in Cyprus? Yes of course they should.

Should GC be concerned that any solution is a structuraly functional as possible? Yes of course they should.

I am grateful for the above, Erol. It was a breath of fresh air for me, and a consolation ...

How many GC do you see saying 'OK I see your problem' when TC voice a complaint - any complaint? Do you think it is 'many'??

GC behaviour tends to be abysmal too ...

See my (our) problem ?

Yes, I do, and I sympathise ...

[erolz]

Yes, I do, and I sympathise ...

Oh if only your sere 'statisicaly representative'

[Piratis]

Erolz, just a question: Do you know anybody that his home would be stolen and he wouldn't have a problem?

On the other hand, do you know any other numerically less community that never owned any specific part of the country that had a problem because they were not given 50% power?

Say that you have a problem that you can not take your home back in the free areas right now, say that you have a problem that TCs were not treated good in the past, say that you have a problem because GCs didn't take into consideration the desires of TCs and they insisted for enosis, say that you want protections so that the culture of TCs will not be sucked by the numerically more GCs, say that you don't like it that the national anthem is the one of Greece etc etc. All of the above could be your problem and nobody could dismiss them. But when you say that your problem is that the 18% of TCs should have 50% power, then I am sorry, but thats not a problem, it is simply an outrageous demand.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Are you agree that 1/3 of the GC population comprise of GC refugees. what is 1/3 of GC population? 270.000 - 300.000?

90.000 - 120.000 would return to the land that would be returned to GC administration. Where will return the rest 180.000 - 200.000?

Insan,

refugees are 30% of GCs not 1/3, and total number of GCs is about 700.000, not 900.000. That makes refugees + descendants 240,000. (which is indeed slightly higher than the 200,000 of 1974, due to population growth). Now, about 60% of the refugees of 1974 were to return under GC administration, as per the Annan Plan. So if we distribute this percent to the 240,000 (which of course includes descendants), only 96.000 remain to return under TC administration.

Since TCs are about 200.000, even if all of these return they will be about 1/3 of the total population. Besides, I am not asking you to take my word for it, I am happy with the 1/3 limit offered in the Annan Plan, in the certainty that with this quota any refugee who might like to return will have the chance to do so - so long, of course, as the severe violations of property rights, the neglect of cultural rights, and the unreal constriction of residence rights are all corrected.

[insan]

Since TCs are about 200.000, even if all of these return they will be about 1/3 of the total population. Besides, I am not asking you to take my word for it, I am happy with the 1/3 limit offered in the Annan Plan, in the certainty that with this quota any refugee who might like to return will have the chance to do so - so long, of course, as the severe violations of property rights, the neglect of cultural rights, and the unreal constriction of residence rights are all corrected.

So let's suppose your figures are accurate.

did you reduce the number of settlers who will be repatriated or leave Cyprus after the strong incentives given them in order to stimulate them to abandon Cyprus?
Let me reduce them. How about 130.000 TCs and 30.000 settlers? Ok?

TCs are now 160.000 together with settlers.

Do you also want no restricions to be put upon free movement? Ok. All other GCs are also free to settle down in TCCS. Would some 40 thousand non-refugee GCs like to settle down in TC constituent state in 5 years time? Highly probable.

Would some 20.000 TCs like to return GCCS? Highly probable.


Result:

140.000 TC/ 140.000 GC in TCCS

Would those 140.000 GCs like to have full political rights, just like the TC residents of TCCS have? Of course, otherwise it would be ethnic discrimination.

The highly probable composition of Senate:

35 GCs + 13 TCs

How will this senate work? Majority rule? Ok.

Take it. Cyprus is yours.

Ps: Alexandros, I know that you accept "political equality" of two communities and permenant restrictions on political rights of GC residents of TCCS. You know what I'm talking about ... But according to my observations majority of GCs do not think like you. Only a new survey made with GCs, specifically focused upon this issue can convince me that what I put forward above is not what the ruling elite of GC community insist on and is not what majority of GC community want.

[boulio]

does anyone know the real numbers in the north?should their not be a independent study done to find out the population in the north?

[Alexandros Lordos]

Ps: Alexandros, I know that you accept "political equality" of two communities and permenant restrictions on political rights of GC residents of TCCS. You know what I'm talking about ... But according to my observations majority of GCs do not think like you. Only a new survey made with GCs, specifically focused upon this issue can convince me that what I put forward above is not what the ruling elite of GC community insist on and is not what majority of GC community want.

OK Insan, I understand what your concern is.

It's true that majority of GCs do not like the provisions in the Annan plan to maintain bizonality/equality (most notably, restrictions to permanent residence rights and ethnically organised voting for the senate). I personally belong in the 25-30% of GCs who have no problem with these provisions, exactly because I see political equality as a key part of the whole "solution package".

How about the other 70% though? From my study, I reached the conclusion that they are nowhere near as firm on this issue as they are, say, on troop withdrawal, settlers, and property rights. Out of this 70%, only about half (35% of the total GCs), would insist on such issues. The rest are willing to compromise on these matters, and accept things like ethnically organised senate voting or restrictions to permanent residence rights, even if they don't like them very much - so long as their other, more central concerns, on troops, settlers and property, are satisfied.

Even so, in my next survey I intend to focus especially on bizonality-related themes. So when I have more info available, I will let you know ...

[Alexandros Lordos]

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