Cyprus-Forum.com

[miltiades]

Murataga and Zan,

I know that Rauf Dnetash is a lawyer, and I do know of his family background. By peasant I did not mean that he tilled the soil! HE was born in a village like Makarios was. Dr Kutcuk was an academic and son of a rich landowning family, a member of the upper classes of Cyprus. Being a big landowner in the 40s and 50s in Cyprus was entirely different to being a civil servant, even a highly paid one. Clarified that I hope.

Now as to the Makarios thing, it is not what they taught me in school. It is what I learned from experience and contact with events and people involved in events. There is nothing in what I posted that tries to absolve Makarios of his mistakes nor any indication that I sympathized then, or now, with his handling of Cyprus at any time. I said clearly that as a priest he did no belong in politics.

I understand that you do not have access to Greek press, history articles and the view of the "man on the street". You would be surprised to hear the mainland Greek's opinion of Makarios, which is probably a little worse than yours. Most( Right wing) Greeks consider him a traitor because he was against Enosis (their words not mine) while the leftists consider him an anomaly of history because he was a priest in politics.

My view is that he undervalued status of the Republic. He came on as the man who would promote Enosis, then figured out it was not possible. He opted for independence and the situation he had created backfired on him.

I realise the Turkish Cypriots see him as the man who ordered the attacks on them. Or at the very least who did not stop them. My question is if he had the power by then to order anyone to do anything. I do know that one mentally unabalanced mainland officer proposed an all out attack and mass slaughter of Turkish Cypriots and Makarios was horrified and had him recalled. So on that evidence I would say he did not condone violence against civilians. But on the other hand he did let the division and the enclaves go on till 1974 and that in turn led to the establishment of TMT power, which brings us back to his ambivalent attitude about Cyprus as a nation state. A mistake from which all the problems follow. None of this is taught in Greek schools by the way.

Makarios came to power in the first place becuase he wanted ENOSIS the same as Greece and 96% of the GCs did. He supported Grivas and the EOKA and gave his blessings for the murders. He is as responsible for many deaths as is Grivas, Samsun and the EOKA from 1958 to when he changed his mind.

The reasons why he changed his mind could be for different things such as:

1) When he became a President of a newly formed republic he didn't want to give his seat away and become just another "Priest". He enjoyed his newly found fame and wanted to enjoy it longer.

2) He fought back when Greece and EOKA tried to cut short his "Presidency".

3) His God told him that enough blood was spilled and scared the daylights out of him if he didn't stop the killing.

4) He really thought that to many innocent GCs lost their lives and did not want to be responsible for any more GC deaths.

I really do not believe that he felt sorry for any TC casualties and wanted to stop the murdering of TCs otherwise he would have suggested that we stop the killing and return to the 1960 constitution together as was agreed but instead he carried on with his wish to change the constitution and to make us second class citizens.

Makarios was the worst thing that happened to Cyprus and he is responsible for many murders. He was the EOKA leader and now you GCs have another EOKA terrorist as your "President" and we are supposed to forget all that and embrace you GCs as if nothing has happened although it is evident that the majority of GCs still want ENOSIS and hate anything Turkish with a vengeance so much so that they are trying to force me to forget even my Turkishness.

Thanks, but no thanks.

CRAP AND MORE CRAP !! Boy you are indeed sick .

[denizaksulu]

You can hate makarios all you like. The man is dead though and cannot undo what has been done. However if you start loving those that are alive acceot and trust them you may infact be changing the future.

All the best

If you translate these wise words into Turkish and Greek to a wider audience it would be useful. It is important that these wessages get accross to the right people. You are living up to your nick now.
Regards

[humanist]

is eric worth my time? NO

[halil]

[zan]

Murataga and Zan,

I know that Rauf Dnetash is a lawyer, and I do know of his family background. By peasant I did not mean that he tilled the soil! HE was born in a village like Makarios was. Dr Kutcuk was an academic and son of a rich landowning family, a member of the upper classes of Cyprus. Being a big landowner in the 40s and 50s in Cyprus was entirely different to being a civil servant, even a highly paid one. Clarified that I hope.

Now as to the Makarios thing, it is not what they taught me in school. It is what I learned from experience and contact with events and people involved in events. There is nothing in what I posted that tries to absolve Makarios of his mistakes nor any indication that I sympathized then, or now, with his handling of Cyprus at any time. I said clearly that as a priest he did no belong in politics.

I understand that you do not have access to Greek press, history articles and the view of the "man on the street". You would be surprised to hear the mainland Greek's opinion of Makarios, which is probably a little worse than yours. Most( Right wing) Greeks consider him a traitor because he was against Enosis (their words not mine) while the leftists consider him an anomaly of history because he was a priest in politics.

My view is that he undervalued status of the Republic. He came on as the man who would promote Enosis, then figured out it was not possible. He opted for independence and the situation he had created backfired on him.

I realise the Turkish Cypriots see him as the man who ordered the attacks on them. Or at the very least who did not stop them. My question is if he had the power by then to order anyone to do anything. I do know that one mentally unabalanced mainland officer proposed an all out attack and mass slaughter of Turkish Cypriots and Makarios was horrified and had him recalled. So on that evidence I would say he did not condone violence against civilians. But on the other hand he did let the division and the enclaves go on till 1974 and that in turn led to the establishment of TMT power, which brings us back to his ambivalent attitude about Cyprus as a nation state. A mistake from which all the problems follow. None of this is taught in Greek schools by the way.

Now lets step back a bit and look at what you said......The interpretations are missing certain items, and one in particular, and a wholely Greek translation of events I am afraid.


If you delve deaper you will see that the mainland officer that suggested the mass slaughter of the TCs was not in line with what the Akritas plan had in mind and maybe that is the reason why he was sent back. He was a threat to the long term strategy that the Akritas plan had planned for us.

The reason that he "kept" us in enclaves was because of the threats Turkey was making of intervening....Start the killing and Turkey would be allowed in so the slow torture and starvation was the only way and that in turn would have meant that many TCs would in fact leave the island.....How the hell do you think that my family and I got off the island in 64??? There was no travel allowed but still my parents, along with 5 children were allowed to smuggle themselves off the island. We did not have money to bribe and persuade our way through but somehow we got out. Does that seem possible when you consider how many people did get out???????


The establishment of the TMT was vital to the Akritas plan...Without them who was Makarios meant to blame the unrest on???? Things don't just happen in Cyprus Nikitas. The long term plan of the Akritas plan worked mostly and that is the reason why the "RoC" is sitting pretty in office and will not go back to the Zurich agreement or any other agreement that does not give it full control of the island. That is why the author is in office and all the people around him are working with that plan in mind...Try reading the plan again with an open mind.....

[denizaksulu]

Murataga and Zan,

I know that Rauf Dnetash is a lawyer, and I do know of his family background. By peasant I did not mean that he tilled the soil! HE was born in a village like Makarios was. Dr Kutcuk was an academic and son of a rich landowning family, a member of the upper classes of Cyprus. Being a big landowner in the 40s and 50s in Cyprus was entirely different to being a civil servant, even a highly paid one. Clarified that I hope.

Now as to the Makarios thing, it is not what they taught me in school. It is what I learned from experience and contact with events and people involved in events. There is nothing in what I posted that tries to absolve Makarios of his mistakes nor any indication that I sympathized then, or now, with his handling of Cyprus at any time. I said clearly that as a priest he did no belong in politics.

I understand that you do not have access to Greek press, history articles and the view of the "man on the street". You would be surprised to hear the mainland Greek's opinion of Makarios, which is probably a little worse than yours. Most( Right wing) Greeks consider him a traitor because he was against Enosis (their words not mine) while the leftists consider him an anomaly of history because he was a priest in politics.

My view is that he undervalued status of the Republic. He came on as the man who would promote Enosis, then figured out it was not possible. He opted for independence and the situation he had created backfired on him.

I realise the Turkish Cypriots see him as the man who ordered the attacks on them. Or at the very least who did not stop them. My question is if he had the power by then to order anyone to do anything. I do know that one mentally unabalanced mainland officer proposed an all out attack and mass slaughter of Turkish Cypriots and Makarios was horrified and had him recalled. So on that evidence I would say he did not condone violence against civilians. But on the other hand he did let the division and the enclaves go on till 1974 and that in turn led to the establishment of TMT power, which brings us back to his ambivalent attitude about Cyprus as a nation state. A mistake from which all the problems follow. None of this is taught in Greek schools by the way.

Now lets step back a bit and look at what you said......The interpretations are missing certain items, and one in particular, and a wholely Greek translation of events I am afraid.


If you delve deaper you will see that the mainland officer that suggested the mass slaughter of the TCs was not in line with what the Akritas plan had in mind and maybe that is the reason why he was sent back. He was a threat to the long term strategy that the Akritas plan had planned for us.

The reason that he "kept" us in enclaves was because of the threats Turkey was making of intervening....Start the killing and Turkey would be allowed in so the slow torture and starvation was the only way and that in turn would have meant that many TCs would in fact leave the island.....How the hell do you think that my family and I got off the island in 64??? There was no travel allowed but still my parents, along with 5 children were allowed to smuggle themselves off the island. We did not have money to bribe and persuade our way through but somehow we got out. Does that seem possible when you consider how many people did get out???????


The establishment of the TMT was vital to the Akritas plan...Without them who was Makarios meant to blame the unrest on???? Things don't just happen in Cyprus Nikitas. The long term plan of the Akritas plan worked mostly and that is the reason why the "RoC" is sitting pretty in office and will not go back to the Zurich agreement or any other agreement that does not give it full control of the island. That is why the author is in office and all the people around him are working with that plan in mind...Try reading the plan again with an open mind.....

Nikitas my friend, I have read your post and I find it 'positive'. But as to President Makarios' claim that he stopped the wholesale elimination/killing of the Turks as a joke. He prefered the small scale attacks, which he could handle, rather than large scale all out attacks, because he knew he would not get away with it.
As to Enosis: It was desirable but not feasible. His famous words.

Regards

[max69er]

Of course it's GC lies and propaganda that the war in Cyprus is everyone else's fault but the GCs.

NOPE not everyone else's fault . . . . just the Turks' fault!

You always can't except the fact that Cyprus decades ago belonged to the Ottoman Empire that means us Turks. When Turkey rented Cyprus to the British and signed a hundred year contract the barstard English refused handing it back over and gave it to you inorder to fuck up the relationship between t/c and g/c and they were successful. They also earned alot of money coz they supplied us firearms etc. So get ur facts right and dont blame it on the Turks coz it easy face reality.

[denizaksulu]

Of course it's GC lies and propaganda that the war in Cyprus is everyone else's fault but the GCs.

NOPE not everyone else's fault . . . . just the Turks' fault!

You always can't except the fact that Cyprus decades ago belonged to the Ottoman Empire that means us Turks. When Turkey rented Cyprus to the British and signed a hundred year contract the barstard English refused handing it back over and gave it to you inorder to fuck up the relationship between t/c and g/c and they were successful. They also earned alot of money coz they supplied us firearms etc. So get ur facts right and dont blame it on the Turks coz it easy face reality.

First things first. Welcome to the forum Max69er. Dont expect a welcome without a few salvos from our neighbors here. Be prepared and enjoy.

DenizAksulu

[Nikitas]

Deniz and Zan,

I read your posts with great interest. Especially Zan's assertion that TMT's presence on the island fitted in with the plan to isolate and gradually push out the Turkish community. I do not want to open a whole can of worms called the "cyprus file" on this forum, but this view ties in with some personal suspicions I have. The Cyprus File is the evidence presented to a Greek Parliament committee, mean to lead to conclusions about the reasons for the Cyprus tragedy of 1974. The committee met but the conclusions were never published.

The acquiescence by Turkey leads to all kinds of questions about deals that might have been worked out and it ties in with the burying of the "Cyprus File".

Deniz, the Greek officer in question was a hardliner by the name of Papapostolou. A passionate anticommunist and nationalist, one of the "cream" of the Junta people. HE served as Makario's liaison with the mainland Greek army for a while. He was the one who proposed the large scale attack. This officer was interviewed on Greek TV but he skirted around the difficult questions. His boss was the dictator Ioannidis who has chosen to die in prison rather than talk about the events of 1973- 74 when he was in charge.

[repulsewarrior]

You always can't except the fact that Cyprus decades ago belonged to the Ottoman Empire that means us Turks. When Turkey rented Cyprus to the British and signed a hundred year contract the barstard English refused handing it back over and gave it to you inorder to fuck up the relationship between t/c and g/c and they were successful. They also earned alot of money coz they supplied us firearms etc. So get ur facts right and dont blame it on the Turks coz it easy face reality.

Here is the crux of the problem.

Turkey does not recognise the Republic of Cyprus. Turkey did not recognise that England alone had the power to decide this island's sovereignty. Turkey has no interest to see its people free and able to determine for themselves their destiny, for its own defense, as much as it is to defend turcophony. But, it is not up to Turkey. Sooner or later Cypriots, turcophone and grecophone will sit down at a table to negociate, alone. If the result proves to be a State which is vital to their interests, it will be Turkey who will bless their enterprise, along with the rest of Mankind.

welcome, eh?