Cyprus-Forum.com

[denizaksulu]

Hmmm, Roman Empire etc. Not an accurate parallel. More to the point would be post war Germany. The Federal Republic recognised the misdeeds of the Third Reich and did two simple things- it apologised and made reparations. The prestige of the German Federal Republic did not suffer, one could say the opposite has happened, the prestige and international stature of Germany increased.

Easier said than done. Amongst christian states and the German diaspora in the states and other European contries it is an admirable thing to happen. We are talking A moslem state v rest of the world here. Whilst the 'Crusader' mentality prevails what chance has Turkey got? You can still see it re: EU.

Deniz, Nikitas's comparison is exactly right. The "Crusader" mentality still exists because Turkey refuses to accept modern Western standards (you could say Iraq is an exception - but that's a differnt issue) and you can still see it in the EU partly because of Turkey's attitude in not recognising the ROC as the EU requests. If the rest of the world is against Turkey, as you say, isn't it likely that Turkey needs to change rather than the rest of the world.

I do not disagree with you entirely. As I said easily said than done.

[CopperLine]

I can't believe that I'm going to respond again to such an idiotic thread

Let's see how Phoenix sets this up : S/he is incapable of seeing anything except in black and white, either/or, us and them, and true to form ends up with a polarising comparator,

what are the odds that the GCs have erred 10 times in the 20th Century . . .

So invites a comparison between Turkey and Greek Cyprus (not even Cyprus, but Greek Cyprus). So Turkey whose history extends not just to 1923, but on Phoenix's criteria of tyrannies, is also iiable for the crimes of the Ottoman empire is to be compared with Cyprus or Greek Cyprus, yes ? A country of 70 million people today with one of maximum 2 million ? A country with eight land borders to an island with no land borders (wouldn't want to include the green line as a border would we) ? A country with huge internal variation in peoples and customs with a society with relatively modest differences ? A country that was inheritor of an imperial past with a country that was almost always subject to colonial rule or other external domination ? Despite all this massive difference Phoenix wants us to suspend disbelief as he puts each countrey's history into balancing scales of his impartial and blindfolded assessment. Whatever could be the result of his wise and even-handed judgement ?

But if you take Phoenix's own contrived criteria one might reasonably conclude that in contrast to Turkey's 80 or so years of independence in which to screw things up, a united Cyprus only had independence for 14 years before it was totally screwed up. That takes some beating ! Independence to seemingly irreconcilable partition in 14 years, whereas Turkey is still, despite massive threats, remains undivided. Quite an achievement really, Phoenix.

But inviting people to such comparisons and such arguments is downright idiotic for your invitations are not done to elicit consideration of the other or to encourage respect for the other. No, your comparisons are simply an incitement to contempt for the other, indeed hatred for the other.

This thread was stinking when it started and it still stinks now.

[denizaksulu]

What can the "people" of the US and UK do? Should they overthrow their government?? The fact that the powers that be haven't taken a blind bit of notice of what it's people thinks shows they don't care.

We are talking about the past though folks!!! I am talking about admitting wrong doing in the past. I am talking about Turkey EVER admitting that they have done something wrong.
I'm not talking about the present and the UK/US.

The Ottomans were forced out and the new Republic of Turkey was created. Why would Turkey/ Republic of Turkey acknowledge something 'allegedly' carried out by the Ottomans? Bear in mind the war situation in the Eastern provinces at the time; the Russian encroachment into the Turkish heartland and the help they received from the Ottoman Armenians, the uncontrollable Kurdish tribes etc. It is a folly to make these allegations without the facts of the events as a whole being looked into impartially.

Ooooh really???

But, don’t you want the GCs, not just to acknowledge, but in fact to be punished for what the American CIA sponsored Greek Junta tried to do in Cyprus in 1974? Don’t you try to blame the coup and the attempted union of Cyprus with Greece on the Greek Cypriots, so that you justify why your “motherland” should have had the right to invade, occupy and usurp for your TC blue eyes, the 36% of Cyprus, and gift it to you after ethnically cleansing the indigenous GC inhabitants from there? Now it is not Turkey that did the genocide against the Armenians, but it is only the Ottoman Turkey! Well, don’t you know that Turkey (Republic of Turkey,) with the Treaty of Lausanne in 1923, happily accepted the legal and political residual of the dissolved Ottoman Empire, as its formal successor, together with all the benefits but also the obligations and responsibilities that this was entailing?

No Kifeas I do NOT want the GCs to be punished for the misdeeds of the Junta and the CIA. What have I said which gave you that impression. Their action (junts/CIA) triggered off the reaction of Turkey. The rest is, is what you are aware of. I hope that when the security of the Cypriots is permanently established we can all return to as much normality as possible. De-militasise the island. The longer it takes to reach a settlement , the more impossible it will be. The sooner the better before the point of no return is reached. You must understand that. I would not say that I am a partitionist, but the longer the leaders prevaricate, I am afraid that our children will be faced by a permanent partition. That will be the Cypriots loss.

DA

[phoenix]

I can't believe that I'm going to respond again to such an idiotic thread

Let's see how Phoenix sets this up : S/he is incapable of seeing anything except in black and white, either/or, us and them, and true to form ends up with a polarising comparator,

Whereas you are all shades of GREY!

what are the odds that the GCs have erred 10 times in the 20th Century . . .

So invites a comparison between Turkey and Greek Cyprus (not even Cyprus, but Greek Cyprus).

This comparison was offered by Birkibrisli, not moi!

So Turkey whose history extends not just to 1923, but on Phoenix's criteria of tyrannies, is also iiable for the crimes of the Ottoman empire is to be compared with Cyprus or Greek Cyprus, yes ?

I restricted the tyrannies to after the Young Turks if you care to double check.

A country of 70 million people today with one of maximum 2 million ? A country with eight land borders to an island with no land borders (wouldn't want to include the green line as a border would we) ? A country with huge internal variation in peoples and customs with a society with relatively modest differences ? A country that was inheritor of an imperial past with a country that was almost always subject to colonial rule or other external domination ? Despite all this massive difference Phoenix wants us to suspend disbelief as he puts each countrey's history into balancing scales of his impartial and blindfolded assessment. Whatever could be the result of his wise and even-handed judgement ?

I made no judgements. I offered facts. Sounds like you're bamboozled by them.

But if you take Phoenix's own contrived criteria one might reasonably conclude that in contrast to Turkey's 80 or so years of independence in which to screw things up, a united Cyprus only had independence for 14 years before it was totally screwed up. That takes some beating ! Independence to seemingly irreconcilable partition in 14 years, whereas Turkey is still, despite massive threats, remains undivided.

Thank you for confessing Turkey has screwed up. You can add the 14 years of screwed up Independence for Cyprus to the Turkish quota of screw-ups.

Quite an achievement really, Phoenix.

I thank you.

But inviting people to such comparisons and such arguments is downright idiotic for your invitations are not done to elicit consideration of the other or to encourage respect for the other. No, your comparisons are simply an incitement to contempt for the other, indeed hatred for the other.

Why are you so outraged? I am only exercising the right to free speech. Are you afraid of Insulting Turkishness?

This thread was stinking when it started and it still stinks now.

Thanks for contributing to the stink

[BirKibrisli]

Phoenix......it is easy to find faults with Turkey if you are a GC...

The test is...can you find 10 things wrong that the GCs did ,say in the 20th century?????Then you will be truly contributing to the understanding and respect between our communities...I dare you to put on your thinking cap and make a list...of 10 things GCs did which contributed to our present predicament...Come on ...rise up to the occassion like a true phoenix...

Weellll, I usually can't resist a challenge!

However, what are the odds that the GCs have erred 10 times in the 20th Century . . . ?
Sometimes it's impossible to balance an equation. Just because the Turks are Masters at atrocities it doesn't mean EVERYONE can rise to their heights (or lowered to their depths).

The respect between our communities can only come once Turkey has apologised for it's tyrannies and makes amends.

Then they can join our path . . . hand-in-hand

It's a tough challenge, Birkibrisli, it's tough! I'm thinking!

(I'll bet even you've struggled to get 10).

Phoenix...One of the major problems we have is our inability to empathise with the "other" side. When we fail to empathise,we cannot go to the next step which is compassion...Then we are stuck with bitterness and hatred,as you seem to be against all things Turkish and Turkish Cypriot...Without sticking the needle in you own body,you should not stick the arrow in others...So let me give you a hand...

Given our history and the presence of a large TC minority,it was a mistake for GCs to insist on Enosis...

Given they objected so much to the 1960 agreement,they should not have signed on the dotted line...

Given that they signed on the dotted line they should not come up with the Akritas Plan to try to achieve their Enosis by stealth...

Knowing that the TCs were looking for an excuse to break away in their own halfbaked dream of Taksim,Makarios should not have insisted on his 13 points the way he did...

They should've known better than responding to the provocations by the TMT,and turn what was a consititutional crisis into a full scale civil war...

They should've been more sensitive to the plight of the TCs during the 1964-74 period,realising that by ignoring them they would not just go away,they would walk into Turkey's arms...


After the invasion of 74,Makarios shoul'dve done much more to reunite his country,instead of playing the wounded stateman,and expecting the world to give him his Country back on a plate...

As the legitimate Government responsible for the whole island,the RoC government should've taken the initiative in acknowledging the massacres of the TCs by the Eoka militias,and offered appologies and restitution unreservedly and promptly...

More recently,the RoC government should've taken more visible measures to remove any symbols of Hellenism from Cyprus,from curbing the influence of the Church to abandoning the use of the Greek national anthem...

The RoC government should not sit back and wait for Turkey's EU negotiations to work in her favour,but make positive and decisive moves to attract more TCs (both living in Cyprus and the diaspora) to the Republic, to take advantage of the rift between the Erdogan government and the Turkish Military...

By refusing to seriously engage in peace talks with TCs and their present leader MA Talat, GCs are falling into Turkey's trap...Any negotiation with Turkey would only be done from a position of weakness,as the status quo gives Turkey the upper hand...Turkey will never settle for a solution which is less advantages than the status quo...

By dragging on the peace negotiations,and relying on outside influences to help achieve a just and lasting solution,the RoC govertnment is only strengthening the forces of Partition,hence guaranteeing that no solution would even be found which will protect the interests of the majority of Cypriots...

I have not counted how many mistakes I came up with...but I can tell you Phoenix this is all from the top of my head...Now tell me which of these mistakes you do not agree with and why???

[Expatkiwi]

The problem with that is that Mr. Papadopoulous has not been giving the Turkish Cypriots - of which he claims to represent - any real incentives to the Turkish Cypriot people to abandon the partition of the island. The little things like passports are designed to mollify foreign criticism, nothing else. If he truly beleives that he is their president, then perhaps he should start acting like it. Not very likely, though.

[Viewpoint]

Phoenix......it is easy to find faults with Turkey if you are a GC...

The test is...can you find 10 things wrong that the GCs did ,say in the 20th century?????Then you will be truly contributing to the understanding and respect between our communities...I dare you to put on your thinking cap and make a list...of 10 things GCs did which contributed to our present predicament...Come on ...rise up to the occassion like a true phoenix...

Weellll, I usually can't resist a challenge!

However, what are the odds that the GCs have erred 10 times in the 20th Century . . . ?
Sometimes it's impossible to balance an equation. Just because the Turks are Masters at atrocities it doesn't mean EVERYONE can rise to their heights (or lowered to their depths).

The respect between our communities can only come once Turkey has apologised for it's tyrannies and makes amends.

Then they can join our path . . . hand-in-hand

It's a tough challenge, Birkibrisli, it's tough! I'm thinking!

(I'll bet even you've struggled to get 10).

Phoenix...One of the major problems we have is our inability to empathise with the "other" side. When we fail to empathise,we cannot go to the next step which is compassion...Then we are stuck with bitterness and hatred,as you seem to be against all things Turkish and Turkish Cypriot...Without sticking the needle in you own body,you should not stick the arrow in others...So let me give you a hand...

Given our history and the presence of a large TC minority,it was a mistake for GCs to insist on Enosis...

Given they objected so much to the 1960 agreement,they should not have signed on the dotted line...

Given that they signed on the dotted line they should not come up with the Akritas Plan to try to achieve their Enosis by stealth...

Knowing that the TCs were looking for an excuse to break away in their own halfbaked dream of Taksim,Makarios should not have insisted on his 13 points the way he did...

They should've known better than responding to the provocations by the TMT,and turn what was a consititutional crisis into a full scale civil war...

They should've been more sensitive to the plight of the TCs during the 1964-74 period,realising that by ignoring them they would not just go away,they would walk into Turkey's arms...


After the invasion of 74,Makarios shoul'dve done much more to reunite his country,instead of playing the wounded stateman,and expecting the world to give him his Country back on a plate...

As the legitimate Government responsible for the whole island,the RoC government should've taken the initiative in acknowledging the massacres of the TCs by the Eoka militias,and offered appologies and restitution unreservedly and promptly...

More recently,the RoC government should've taken more visible measures to remove any symbols of Hellenism from Cyprus,from curbing the influence of the Church to abandoning the use of the Greek national anthem...

The RoC government should not sit back and wait for Turkey's EU negotiations to work in her favour,but make positive and decisive moves to attract more TCs (both living in Cyprus and the diaspora) to the Republic, to take advantage of the rift between the Erdogan government and the Turkish Military...

By refusing to seriously engage in peace talks with TCs and their present leader MA Talat, GCs are falling into Turkey's trap...Any negotiation with Turkey would only be done from a position of weakness,as the status quo gives Turkey the upper hand...Turkey will never settle for a solution which is less advantages than the status quo...

By dragging on the peace negotiations,and relying on outside influences to help achieve a just and lasting solution,the RoC govertnment is only strengthening the forces of Partition,hence guaranteeing that no solution would even be found which will protect the interests of the majority of Cypriots...

I have not counted how many mistakes I came up with...but I can tell you Phoenix this is all from the top of my head...Now tell me which of these mistakes you do not agree with and why???

Great post Bir, well done.

[Nikitas]

Bir

I do not know if I can come with ten things but I will try

1- Once you opt to become a nation state then you got to act like one and do so seriously. Cyprus was not a serious nation state in 1960. An interesting op-ed appeared in the Greek Cypriot press yesterday claiming that power in the 60s was held by a handful of peasant class youngsters appointed to government posts simply because they had fought the British. The middle class and the urban class was bypassed in the initial government appointments.

2- The advice of Greece (civillian governent of the early 60s) was ignored- Prime Minister Karamanlis had advised to satisfy Turkish Cypriot desires even if they seemed unreasonable, hence the quote "give them everything they want plus a sweet on top"

3- We allowed both sides, Greek and Turkish, to "play cowboys and indians" for three years from 1960 to 1963, importing guns and arming their respective gangs- something I witnessed as a boy in Famagusta hence the use of the article "we" at the beginning of the paragraph.

4- As a non serious state we did not have the force necessary to disarm these gangs.

5- The 70-30 apportionment in the civils srvice jobs was unfair given the 82-18 ratio of the population. The British did not have the 70-30 ratio when they ruled the island. It was a difficulty but not a disaster. We got stuck on that and let it become a major issue. The economic boom of the late 60s proved how wrong that view was and how disastrous.

6- There was no state sponsoered language programme so that each citizen could UNDERSTAND the other language, not SPEAK it, this is a strong personal opinion. But I think a valid one.

7- There was no effort to familiarise each community with the culture and customs of the other. The Greek Cypriots, as the larger community should have taken the initiative to do this. There were some TV shows with Turkish folk lore but not enough.

8- Not taking the new state seriously meant that the Republic tolerated the no-go areas set up by Turkish Cypriots in the 50s. Separate municipalities did not have to become the beginning of ghettos. This physical separation blossomed into full scale division long before 1963. I recall being stopped from cycling into the old city of Famagusta at the age of 11 because I am a Greek Cypriot.

9- Makarios did not appoint a Turkish Cypriot as chief of police. A move that would have countered the KIP plan and the Bayraktar Bozkurt nonsense.

10- We did not limit the size and influence of the Greek and Turkish diplomatic missions in Cyprus and allowed too much free movement of the ELDYK and TURDYK forces on the island. In effect they moved around freely and indulged in a proxy shadow war before 1963.

Well got to number 10 and I could have gone on.

[phoenix]

Bir

I do not know if I can come with ten things but I will try

1- Once you opt to become a nation state then you got to act like one and do so seriously. Cyprus was not a serious nation state in 1960. An interesting op-ed appeared in the Greek Cypriot press yesterday claiming that power in the 60s was held by a handful of peasant class youngsters appointed to government posts simply because they had fought the British. The middle class and the urban class was bypassed in the initial government appointments.

2- The advice of Greece (civillian governent of the early 60s) was ignored- Prime Minister Karamanlis had advised to satisfy Turkish Cypriot desires even if they seemed unreasonable, hence the quote "give them everything they want plus a sweet on top"

3- We allowed both sides, Greek and Turkish, to "play cowboys and indians" for three years from 1960 to 1963, importing guns and arming their respective gangs- something I witnessed as a boy in Famagusta hence the use of the article "we" at the beginning of the paragraph.

4- As a non serious state we did not have the force necessary to disarm these gangs.

5- The 70-30 apportionment in the civils srvice jobs was unfair given the 82-18 ratio of the population. The British did not have the 70-30 ratio when they ruled the island. It was a difficulty but not a disaster. We got stuck on that and let it become a major issue. The economic boom of the late 60s proved how wrong that view was and how disastrous.

6- There was no state sponsoered language programme so that each citizen could UNDERSTAND the other language, not SPEAK it, this is a strong personal opinion. But I think a valid one.

7- There was no effort to familiarise each community with the culture and customs of the other. The Greek Cypriots, as the larger community should have taken the initiative to do this. There were some TV shows with Turkish folk lore but not enough.

8- Not taking the new state seriously meant that the Republic tolerated the no-go areas set up by Turkish Cypriots in the 50s. Separate municipalities did not have to become the beginning of ghettos. This physical separation blossomed into full scale division long before 1963. I recall being stopped from cycling into the old city of Famagusta at the age of 11 because I am a Greek Cypriot.

9- Makarios did not appoint a Turkish Cypriot as chief of police. A move that would have countered the KIP plan and the Bayraktar Bozkurt nonsense.

10- We did not limit the size and influence of the Greek and Turkish diplomatic missions in Cyprus and allowed too much free movement of the ELDYK and TURDYK forces on the island. In effect they moved around freely and indulged in a proxy shadow war before 1963.

Well got to number 10 and I could have gone on.

Nikitas: Efharisto. A level-headed and temperate response.

[phoenix]

Birkibrisli, thank you for your Quip Modest, and as you are one of the TC dignitaries I welcome your criticism.

Phoenix...One of the major problems we have is our inability to empathise with the "other" side. When we fail to empathise,we cannot go to the next step which is compassion...Then we are stuck with bitterness and hatred,as you seem to be against all things Turkish and Turkish Cypriot...Without sticking the needle in you own body,you should not stick the arrow in others...So let me give you a hand...

Empathy and compassion I have in abundance and would gladly offer to Turkey if they own up to their crimes and assure us they will not be repeated ad infinitum. After all what is easier and fairer . . . for the victim to understand the culprit or for the culprit to just STOP!

Given our history and the presence of a large TC minority,it was a mistake for GCs to insist on Enosis...

The only shared History between GC and TC was one of victimisation and enslavement from the TC / Ottomans over the GC. This is not partnership-building material and the GCs were free to make their choice.
Bad choice perhaps but in every way legal

Given they objected so much to the 1960 agreement,they should not have signed on the dotted line...

Makarios was more focused on removing the British from power at the time and that was guaranteed in the 1960 agreement. You cannot expect Makarios to have wrapped everything up in one go. He later proposed his 13 points to streamline the TC community into a Democratic Cyprus and you know the Turkish reaction to that ..

Given that they signed on the dotted line they should not come up with the Akritas Plan to try to achieve their Enosis by stealth...

The Akritas plan still remains very much a mystery wrapped up in an enigma. It was sabotaged by TCs so we will never know.

Knowing that the TCs were looking for an excuse to break away in their own halfbaked dream of Taksim,Makarios should not have insisted on his 13 points the way he did...

He merely proposed. The Turkish and TC response was immediate.

They should've known better than responding to the provocations by the TMT,and turn what was a consititutional crisis into a full scale civil war..
They should've been more sensitive to the plight of the TCs during the 1964-74 period,realising that by ignoring them they would not just go away,they would walk into Turkey's arms...

There were elements in the TC community, Denktash included, that would not have it any other way anyway. In retrospect we were dealt an unfair and gargantuan blow for lack of hindsight.

After the invasion of 74,Makarios shoul'dve done much more to reunite his country,instead of playing the wounded stateman,and expecting the world to give him his Country back on a plate...

He was under pressure from the floods of refugees and scores of other victims. He sought immediate reparations.

As the legitimate Government responsible for the whole island,the RoC government should've taken the initiative in acknowledging the massacres of the TCs by the Eoka militias,and offered appologies and restitution unreservedly and promptly...

There were casualties on both sides - but only Turkey was the invader that stayed. Who apologises to the invader for daring to defend themselves?

More recently,the RoC government should've taken more visible measures to remove any symbols of Hellenism from Cyprus,from curbing the influence of the Church to abandoning the use of the Greek national anthem...

This is a perfect example of Turkey wishing to erase and revert History. Such demands are not acceptable in a Democracy.

The RoC government should not sit back and wait for Turkey's EU negotiations to work in her favour,but make positive and decisive moves to attract more TCs (both living in Cyprus and the diaspora) to the Republic, to take advantage of the rift between the Erdogan government and the Turkish Military...

Why? Sort yourselves out . . .

By refusing to seriously engage in peace talks with TCs and their present leader MA Talat, GCs are falling into Turkey's trap...Any negotiation with Turkey would only be done from a position of weakness,as the status quo gives Turkey the upper hand...Turkey will never settle for a solution which is less advantages than the status quo...[

This is a whinge!

By dragging on the peace negotiations,and relying on outside influences to help achieve a just and lasting solution,the RoC govertnment is only strengthening the forces of Partition,hence guaranteeing that no solution would even be found which will protect the interests of the majority of Cypriots...

The right results are preferable to "fast" results.

I have not counted how many mistakes I came up with...but I can tell you Phoenix this is all from the top of my head...Now tell me which of these mistakes you do not agree with and why???

As far as "mistakes" go . . . we all make them and that's how we learn. But only if we recognise and acknowledge those mistakes. Not if we take the example of Turkey and deny them.

We've exchanged views. I am left feeling only pity for the TCs because of the enormous baggage they carry by their association with Turkey and it's Tyrannies. The core is rotten.