Cyprus-Forum.com

[phoenix]

Allow me to demonstrate how I came to the conclusion that GCs need to be allowed to run their own country in their own way

There you go again, this says it all really, and you have the nerve to say my "evil twisted cynical divisive mind" is at work. Go figure.

What is your problem with that statement?

Who tells the Turks how to run Turkey? . . . it's own people.

Why should it be any different for the Native Cypriots? Why, so that you can have a motherland and more besides!

What makes the TCs any different to anybody else that they should have SO MUCH MORE than any other group of people?

You just don't get it do you ?

Who gives you the right to say "if TCs want to stay, great, BUT unashamedly on our terms".

In your statement there is really no place for TC, unless they give in to your every demand. Thanks but no thanks.

I have already explained this to you. Why should the Native Cypriots not be self-governing?

I never suggested they give in to every demand . . . but "too many cooks spoil the soup" and the Native Cypriots have to be given a chance to govern.
Then you complain if you don't like

Be serious, who will listen to our complaints once we stay "unashamedly on 'your' terms". The RoC government, the EU, the UN ?

Because of the pillars that we base the foundations of a Democratic government upon.

Surely you don't disapprove of a firm foundation based on Democracy?

Do you?

I have no problems with democracy, I'm just not sure how you plan to use it.

I can guess though that you have "one man, one vote" in mind which means everything the 'Native Cypriot' wants, the 'Native Cypriot' gets.

Am I on the right tracks ?

Yes and No

Maybe the TCs and GCs want more of the same things then you give them credit for.

After all running a country is just about giving people an education, a health service, etc. You cannot argue that GCs and TCs would want drastically different things that each turn of the screw causes conflict.

So what's wrong with a Democracy were the wants of the average person are met.

[miltiades]

KibrisliTurk -

There's no need or justification for the posting of such images. The fires in Greece were a disaster and pictures of this devastation have no place here.

An appropriate reply , human tragedies are not up for scoring points , as for the remarks made against the greatest Turk ever , such comments are totaly inappropriate since they are offensive to many millions of people.

[Kifeas]

So I harden against Turkey and the TCs because I want my country back and if TCs want to stay, great, BUT unashamedly on our terms.

Birkibrisli, you sound like a nice man and there are many nice TCs but my country folk come first and unless you allow us this one thing, to run our own country in our own way, with you along or not, then you are not with us. You are against us and our sovereignty.

Phoenix, does your nickname come from “finikas,” that mythical bird that became the emblem of the April 1967 Greek Junta? Listen “Phoenix,” we indeed do get enough of emotive grab from schizoid Turkish Cypriot nationalists in here, to now have to sort out their counterpart Greek Cypriot mirror images!

Is there a more accurate way to express what you want to say, other than this preposterous authoritarian style? When you say “they can stay on our terms,” whose terms do you mean and what are these terms?

As for the second paragraph that you posted above; besides your little self -and since you used the “we” pronoun, on who else’s behalf are you talking about? Which other GC political party, association or organised movement do share the above claim or notion, that because we came first we should have the right to rule the country in which ever way we want, without consideration towards what other communities may want or how they feel about it? Is this the sense or type of democracy we want to promote in Cyprus, within the framework of a solution? Are we suggesting that, whatever the Turks do against other cultural or social groups in Turkey, we should also have the right to carry out in Cyprus, simply because we are the majority or because we came first?

Kifeas I see the colour red has attracted you to LondonBoys selection of quotes.
Please see above post, my reply to Miltiades to clarify my standpoint that I do nothing more than thrash out ideas to find some sense. It is my way.

I would never stoop to dictate to someone how to conduct their ideas . . I just retort in kind.
But, I appreciate your worries though.

My nick has nothing to do with the Junta for whom my feelings towards would put your own to shame. It merely represents my return since forced out by some TCs (a minor mirror of what Turkey did to me and my family with their bombs).

If I use the term "we" it is only because "I" would sound more authoritarian. This is just semantics.

I stand by my firm belief that I owe it to my country upon my return in a few months from my forced exile, to remind it that it deserves better than being a second rate split nation. That means GCs have to stop pussyfooting and cowering to please all and sundry and set the example by firmly leading in a Democratic way.

But be under no misapprehensions, in whatever way I ask or even demand . . it is for a Democracy where all it's civilians will help govern by whom they elect to do so on their behalf.

phoenix, even though I make little sense of what you are talking about, I suggest that before you come over to conduct your personal crusade on Cyprus, to first learn the appropriate jargon and try to understand the notions and the context in which the Cyprus issue is being understood and handled by the international community; otherwise I see you "ending up" just like another "Don Quixote" chasing wind mills!

[miltiades]

So I harden against Turkey and the TCs because I want my country back and if TCs want to stay, great, BUT unashamedly on our terms.

Birkibrisli, you sound like a nice man and there are many nice TCs but my country folk come first and unless you allow us this one thing, to run our own country in our own way, with you along or not, then you are not with us. You are against us and our sovereignty.

Phoenix, does your nickname come from “finikas,” that mythical bird that became the emblem of the April 1967 Greek Junta? Listen “Phoenix,” we indeed do get enough of emotive grab from schizoid Turkish Cypriot nationalists in here, to now have to sort out their counterpart Greek Cypriot mirror images!

Is there a more accurate way to express what you want to say, other than this preposterous authoritarian style? When you say “they can stay on our terms,” whose terms do you mean and what are these terms?

As for the second paragraph that you posted above; besides your little self -and since you used the “we” pronoun, on who else’s behalf are you talking about? Which other GC political party, association or organised movement do share the above claim or notion, that because we came first we should have the right to rule the country in which ever way we want, without consideration towards what other communities may want or how they feel about it? Is this the sense or type of democracy we want to promote in Cyprus, within the framework of a solution? Are we suggesting that, whatever the Turks do against other cultural or social groups in Turkey, we should also have the right to carry out in Cyprus, simply because we are the majority or because we came first?

Well said Kifeas , his views are obviously not yours any more than they are mine or those of the overwhelming Greek Cypriot population .We are a democracy and must remain as such in order to continue receiving the respect and credibility afforded to us by the International community. The people of Cyprus are all the Cypriots.

[Kifeas]

They might not allow us to build things like mosques! Or tell us things like theres enough mosques, no need for more....just using that as an example...

Yeap! Just like your leadership and motherland understood "BB federation," as it was manifested in the so-called "TCCS constitution" of the Annan plan!

[phoenix]

I have already explained this to you. Why should the Native Cypriots not be self-governing?

I never suggested they give in to every demand . . . but "too many cooks spoil the soup" and the Native Cypriots have to be given a chance to govern.
Then you complain if you don't like

phoenix, native people of any country (i.e. Cypriots) do not ask to be "given a chance" to rule themselves! It is an axiom and a natural right that they should always rule themselves! It is not a matter of asking to be given "a chance!"

By all means and measures, and by international and existing national laws, Turkish Cypriots are a part of the native people of Cyprus!

And now you are scolding me for being polite

I am only opposed to a split Nation Kifeas where it is constantly rammed down our throats that for every Law there has to be an equal and opposite Law to satisfy the oh so woefully different TCs (sarcasm intended).

What's wrong with a Democracy that represents the average person who is not defined by their race but by the fact that they are just a civilian going about his daily average life.

[phoenix]

So I harden against Turkey and the TCs because I want my country back and if TCs want to stay, great, BUT unashamedly on our terms.

Birkibrisli, you sound like a nice man and there are many nice TCs but my country folk come first and unless you allow us this one thing, to run our own country in our own way, with you along or not, then you are not with us. You are against us and our sovereignty.

Phoenix, does your nickname come from “finikas,” that mythical bird that became the emblem of the April 1967 Greek Junta? Listen “Phoenix,” we indeed do get enough of emotive grab from schizoid Turkish Cypriot nationalists in here, to now have to sort out their counterpart Greek Cypriot mirror images!

Is there a more accurate way to express what you want to say, other than this preposterous authoritarian style? When you say “they can stay on our terms,” whose terms do you mean and what are these terms?

As for the second paragraph that you posted above; besides your little self -and since you used the “we” pronoun, on who else’s behalf are you talking about? Which other GC political party, association or organised movement do share the above claim or notion, that because we came first we should have the right to rule the country in which ever way we want, without consideration towards what other communities may want or how they feel about it? Is this the sense or type of democracy we want to promote in Cyprus, within the framework of a solution? Are we suggesting that, whatever the Turks do against other cultural or social groups in Turkey, we should also have the right to carry out in Cyprus, simply because we are the majority or because we came first?

Well said Kifeas , his views are obviously not yours any more than they are mine or those of the overwhelming Greek Cypriot population .We are a democracy and must remain as such in order to continue receiving the respect and credibility afforded to us by the International community. The people of Cyprus are all the Cypriots.

Miltiades. My view of Democracy does not split people into races as YOURS does.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint, just imagine that you lived next to a neighbor that all he does is complain about the traffic laws in all your conversations that you have with him every time you see him. The neighbor doesn't even own a car, and hasn't drove in 33 years. Would you still want to make any decent conversation with him or avoid him because anything you say doesn't matter anyway? Moral of the story is VP, is that your that annoying neighbor who swears his feelings comes before everyone else who drives and appreciates the luxury of driving.

Terrible analogy try harder.

[Viewpoint]

So I harden against Turkey and the TCs because I want my country back and if TCs want to stay, great, BUT unashamedly on our terms.

Birkibrisli, you sound like a nice man and there are many nice TCs but my country folk come first and unless you allow us this one thing, to run our own country in our own way, with you along or not, then you are not with us. You are against us and our sovereignty.

Phoenix
But don't you understand that those views I highlighted in your post will add credence to the TC view that we have no place in your united RoC ?
Heaven knows what the future holds for TC's once the Turkish army leaves if you want to run the country "your way" "your terms", period.

That's based on the assumption that Phoenix's way is bad. You might first want to ask for details of the "way" before passing judgement.

Oh come on, you can see the way it is written and it is clear enough to me. Phoenix may have time now to reconsider what he really meant by "his way" "his terms" " but I know what I have read (as have other since his post).

I see whilst the cat was away the mice have been playing!

Allow me to demonstrate how I came to the conclusion that GCs need to be allowed to run their own country in their own way.

I started with the premise that Turkey could not be trusted not only because of the terrible atrocities it has performed on other Nations in the past but also because it refuses to acknowledge these and reassure us that it has changed. Not one person defended either the atrocities nor the stance that Turkey takes towards these.

Ergo it remains:TURKEY CAN NOT BE TRUSTED. It does not play by today's exacting standards. It is a misfit.

I was then asked by Birkibrisli to empathise with the TCs on the basis that GCs should be just as bad.

Well WRONG. It does not immediately follow that the GCs have behaved just as bad as the Turks. On close examination all aspects of GC actions that I could refer to where carried out EXPLICITLY to defend themselves against the presence of invaders. This is in no way equal to what the Turks have done.

Now on this basis who would make the most trustworthy leader of a fledgling country????

The undeniably barbarous Turks or the Native Cypriots that have been struggling to re-establish their Nation?

Only a cretin could fail to see that power can only be trusted to the Native Cypriots.
As to how they use that power, there is not one iota of evidence to suggest it would be abused.

The Cypriot people are inherent believers in Democracy, also we are under the EU banner and we uphold ALL International Laws. So what other WAY have you conjured up in your evil twisted cynical divisive mind LondonBoy of whatever vintage!

To top it all Turkey has offered protection to the TCs. It could follow this with offering them asylum should they not wish to remain in a Democratically run country such as the RoC.

Those TCs that wish to remain in a modern Democracy that respects it's neighbours, I'm sure will be of the highest calibre and I welcome them.

The rest can go to HELL otherwise known as TURKEY.

Thank you for your honesty, please take note all TCs this is what the majority of GCs really think but are afraid to say, we would be foreigners living in a GC state run by GCs.

[Viewpoint]

So I harden against Turkey and the TCs because I want my country back and if TCs want to stay, great, BUT unashamedly on our terms.

Birkibrisli, you sound like a nice man and there are many nice TCs but my country folk come first and unless you allow us this one thing, to run our own country in our own way, with you along or not, then you are not with us. You are against us and our sovereignty.

Phoenix, does your nickname come from “finikas,” that mythical bird that became the emblem of the April 1967 Greek Junta? Listen “Phoenix,” we indeed do get enough of emotive grab from schizoid Turkish Cypriot nationalists in here, to now have to sort out their counterpart Greek Cypriot mirror images!

Is there a more accurate way to express what you want to say, other than this preposterous authoritarian style? When you say “they can stay on our terms,” whose terms do you mean and what are these terms?

As for the second paragraph that you posted above; besides your little self -and since you used the “we” pronoun, on who else’s behalf are you talking about? Which other GC political party, association or organised movement do share the above claim or notion, that because we came first we should have the right to rule the country in which ever way we want, without consideration towards what other communities may want or how they feel about it? Is this the sense or type of democracy we want to promote in Cyprus, within the framework of a solution? Are we suggesting that, whatever the Turks do against other cultural or social groups in Turkey, we should also have the right to carry out in Cyprus, simply because we are the majority or because we came first?

Kifeas I see the colour red has attracted you to LondonBoys selection of quotes.
Please see above post, my reply to Miltiades to clarify my standpoint that I do nothing more than thrash out ideas to find some sense. It is my way.

I would never stoop to dictate to someone how to conduct their ideas . . I just retort in kind.
But, I appreciate your worries though.

My nick has nothing to do with the Junta for whom my feelings towards would put your own to shame. It merely represents my return since forced out by some TCs (a minor mirror of what Turkey did to me and my family with their bombs).

If I use the term "we" it is only because "I" would sound more authoritarian. This is just semantics.

I stand by my firm belief that I owe it to my country upon my return in a few months from my forced exile, to remind it that it deserves better than being a second rate split nation. That means GCs have to stop pussyfooting and cowering to please all and sundry and set the example by firmly leading in a Democratic way.

But be under no misapprehensions, in whatever way I ask or even demand . . it is for a Democracy where all it's civilians will help govern by whom they elect to do so on their behalf.

Your statements were quite clear and honest, dont allow them to shut you up or change your mind to suit their secrective and dangerous position. Tcs are fully aware that the majority of GCs share your views if not openly they are waiting for a time when the "native Cypriots" which you have sstated as the GCs rule their country and we TCs can stay if we are good just like other foreigners.