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Is Division the best Solution???

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby insan » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:42 pm

Alexandros Lordos wrote:So, Insan, you are saying that Denktash has been waking and sleeping with the concern about how to re-unify Cyprus? Please inform me, because if my mind has been poisoned with propaganda I would like to know.

And the high level agreements were "a product of the Greeks and GCs"? You are really giving a very baffling history lesson today ...

But let's keep talking. Maybe we will find the truth this way.



Alexandros,

Can you tell me what has changed on the basic solution principles of Turkish side when compared with Denktash term and Erdogan term or Talat term. Nothing. Turkish side still defend the same basic principles and parameters of solution. The only difference is the new actors of turkish side are more pro-active, wiser, intelligent and efective than the current psycho-dotard Denktash. After all the frustrations Denktash have been left faced to face by GC leadership and his very old age nothin better could be expected from him, in the last 5 or so years. But as I said, the Turkish side hasn't change its basic principles and parameters concerning the solution of cyprus problem.

What has changed, you tell me. Once GC leadership and Greece were accusing Denktash and then Turkish officials with intransigence, now they accuse Talat and Erdogan with intransigence. Once Denktash and then Turkish governments were accusing GC leadership and Greece with intransigence now Talat and Erdogan government make the same accusations about Tassos leadership.

Really tell me what's been changed between now and then or ever.
Last edited by insan on Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Mar 01, 2005 7:54 pm

Apologies for being so pessimistic but since joining this forum I have slowly converted into being a realist. I just wonder how long will it take for you to realize that horse is dead and buried, 2,5,10 years??
How long will it take for you to throw in the towel and consider division as the only real option for a solution as we are so far apart on many issues and have absoulutely no hope of finding common ground. In addittion to the issues we have political games and hidden agendas, politicians say one thing and really want the opposite.
The south entering the EU made Greek Cypriots complacent in the belief that there would be this great EU solution, this pushed the Greek Cypriots more towards a no, in the thought that if they say no then they will have to the opportunity to use the EU to get what I want majority rule for GCs and a minority status for TCs in their own homeland.
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Postby Piratis » Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:34 pm

a minority status for TCs in their own homeland.


I hear this a lot. Did they teach you that minorities exist only in not their own homeland? (actually if its not their own country they are foreign citizens, not a minority).
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Postby erolz » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:08 pm

Piratis wrote: (actually if its not their own country they are foreign citizens, not a minority).


Which is exactly why we use the term 'in our own homeland' and not 'in our own country'.

There is a large Indian community in the UK. They are an ethnic minority. The UK is their country (they are UK citizens). The UK is not their homeland. After a generation or two they may (or may not) come to consider the UK both their country and their homeland. There is a difference between the country you are a citizen of and the country you consider your homeland. Homleand is the place 'you come from' (physicaly, emotionaly and or spiritualy). It is one thing to be deemed and considered a minority in country that you do not consider your homeland but may be a citizen of. It is a different thing to be deemed and considered a minority in the country you do consider your homeland. Can you understand this?

PS before you 'rip into' this post - firstly I have been without sleep for 40+ hours as a I write this and secondly please try and consider what I mean rather than just how you can 'destroy' what I have said?
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:19 pm

insan wrote:Can you tell me what has changed on the basic solution principles of Turkish side when compared with Denktash term and Erdogan term or Talat term. Nothing. Turkish side still defend the same basic principles and parameters of solution.


I would like to hope something has changed, because Denktash never had his heart in re-unification. The best he would condone (and I hope we will not need to argue on this) was a loose confederation of two separately sovereign entities. I am not saying that Denktash didn't want peace, but these were the only terms on which he would choose peace instead of the current situation.

Now, what was the Annan Plan? Simply the direct result of the High Level Agreements and nothing else? We should not ignore the process of negotiation leading up to the creation of the plan, during which period Alvaro de Soto and his assistants were desperately attempting to reconcile the demands of Denktash and Clerides. And since most of Denktash's demands were way outside the 1977 / 1979 framework, (eg confederation instead of federation, no right of return for GCs under TC administration), the authors of the Annan Plan did their best to accomodate these demands while remaining faithful to the letter of the high level agreement. This is how we ended up, for instance, with the "virgin birth" approach to sovereignty, by which the Annan Plan is neither a clear federation nor a clear confederation, or with the highly constricting residence limitations which, while remaining true to the letter of the High Level Agreements, which talked of majority control of constituent states, in fact created a situation closer to the "ethnic purity" which Denktash envisaged. It is such provisions in the Annan Plan which made GCs reject it ...

(And of course, there was nothing in the High Level Agreements to suggest that 60,000 settlers should have the right to stay, or that large number of troops would stay in Cyprus for 20 years after the solution, or that Turkey would have the right to intervene in the GC constituent state as well, or that the whole scheme would lead to economic ruin within a few years because the authors of the plan were lawyers who did not understand Economics well.)

How would it be different with Talat? Well, Talat comes from a different ideological background, CTP has always favored re-unification rather than independence. So, even though his behaviour at the negotiating table has not been proven yet, I expect that he will be more open to amendments that will lead to genuine re-unification (cross voting, integrated schools, a federal zone, less restrictions to residence etc. etc.)

In Turkey, also, a wind of change is blowing (you are right though, it's not just Erdogan). A more co-operative approach to international problems is replacing the older oppositional doctrine. (This has been confirmed to me by some Turkish academics in Istanbul who are friends of mine) This, too, will bring a new air to negotiations over Cyprus.

About Tassos, I don't know: I have no hard evidence as of yet either way, that will prove to me whether he is an implacable hardliner or just someone who wants a decent solution to the Cyprus Problem. So far, his public statements as to how the Annan Plan should be improved are generally on the right wavelength: Stronger integration of the two communities, more effective deadlock resolution (let's not immediately assume that this is a ruse to conceal "majority rule" demands), settlers, security, guarantees, economy. To me it sounds like his greatest concern is to not sign a solution that will collapse two years later - and I am in tune with that. Of course, we shall only know for certain how he will behave, when negotiations recommence ...

Overall, I would say I am tentatively hopeful that important progress will be made this year. I am not saying we will get a solution this year: Too much needs to be done before we reach that stage. But a new understanding will gradually begin to emerge, a new vision of what a bizonal - bicommunal Federation should look like ...

Have a good evening, my friend. My apologies if I have been rude or sarcastic during the course of this intense discussion today. :)
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Postby erolz » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:26 pm

Alexandros Lordos wrote:About Tassos, I don't know: I have no hard evidence as of yet either way, that will prove to me whether he is an implacable hardliner or just someone who wants a decent solution to the Cyprus Problem.


Well lets ignore his history and past then - can I ask you what you make of his recent claim that not a single TC was killed by GC in the priod 63-74? That seems beyond 'hardline' to me? I was wondering how you saw it? I also what what you think TC should make of such a statement?
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:28 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Apologies for being so pessimistic but since joining this forum I have slowly converted into being a realist.


My friend,

you have been in the forum for too short a time, to be able to reach such absolute and negative conclusions. Don't trust your "first reality shock" - we've all gone through that ...

It is natural, after thirty years of separation and opposition, that our views will be sharply opposed. The more we talk, however, the closer to each other we come ...

Just give it time ... :wink:
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Postby Alexandros Lordos » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:37 pm

erolz wrote:
Alexandros Lordos wrote:About Tassos, I don't know: I have no hard evidence as of yet either way, that will prove to me whether he is an implacable hardliner or just someone who wants a decent solution to the Cyprus Problem.


Well lets ignore his history and past then - can I ask you what you make of his recent claim that not a single TC was killed by GC in the priod 63-74? That seems beyond 'hardline' to me? I was wondering how you saw it? I also what what you think TC should make of such a statement?



Public statements are not hard evidence, neither statements of good will nor statements of ill will ... politicians as a whole cannot be trusted to publicly speak their true thoughts.

But anyway, do you have a link to this claim of Tassos you are mentioning? I'd like to see it myself before I comment further.
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:37 pm

so the last 30 years of negotiaitons was all bullshit and Greek Cypriots did not actively take part or have any of their demands included in various plans??? that were doomed from the outset.

So whats going to be different this time? we have Talat who was once gardash to Akel but have now disowned each other thus prompting him to work more in line with Turkeys outlook, and the not only hard faced but hard liner ex eoka, anti RoC constitution, anti Turkish Cypriot, cry baby Mr Papadop. To be honest it doesnt fill me with much confidence, the anti Papadop feeling is growing faster than ever and even if he offered us our own country on a plate people would still say OXI because they do not trust him one inch.
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Postby erolz » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:48 pm

Alexandros Lordos wrote:But anyway, do you have a link to this claim of Tassos you are mentioning? I'd like to see it myself before I comment further.


http://www.khaleejtimes.com/Displayarti ... ember2.xml

it's right at the end.
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