Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Doesnt that make you guys think he may have been wrong about Annan 5 ???

If we thought he was wrong we wouldn't have voted "no".

[brother]

How many in your society actually knew the plan, from alexandros study i believe many where not upto date or understood the plan, so yet again i reckon his tears are what turned the vote.

[Piratis]

so yet again i reckon his tears are what turned the vote.

Papadopoulos speach was done at the end. Numerous polls that have been contacted before that (some of them several months before) showed that the great majority of GCs did not accept the Annan plan as it is. So you reckon wrongly.

[Alexandros Lordos]

so yet again i reckon his tears are what turned the vote.

Papadopoulos speech was done at the end. Numerous polls that have been contacted before that (some of them several months before) showed that the great majority of GCs did not accept the Annan plan as it is. So you reckon wrongly.

I fully concur. The plan was rejected because of its content, end of story. Since my study was referred to, I should remind that even the most politically impartial group (those who gave equal weight to the opinions of Clerides, Christofias and Papadopoulos), still voted "No" at 76%.

Personally speaking, I could give you a list of about 30 things that were seriously wrong with the Plan, and which, put together, would probably have led to the collapse of the agreement within 2-3 years at most - good will or no good will.

The process of negotiation leading up to the Annan Plan was itself a sham - with Denktash constantly putting forward totally unworkable propositions, in a spirit of ill will, and Clerides unable to resist because he was being blackmailed over EU membership. And now, all of a sudden, Papadopoulos is to blame for everything, the man who became President when the whole thing was already a fait accompli!

I suggest we get over this notion that "the GCs were misled into voting No", so that we can start discussing more seriously about how we can proceed from now on, and how we can together arrive at a truly workable solution.

[Viewpoint]

Dear Alexandros
We have worked for a solution for 30 years plans have come and gone surely we can agree that the Cypriot people are tired in fact exausted of working towards another lame duck solution that runs a very high risk of being rejected yet again.
Dont you feel we should accept that we are flogging a dead horse and the our effort must move in the direction of a viable partition so that we may all move on and all live happily ever after.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Dear Alexandros
We have worked for a solution for 30 years plans have come and gone surely we can agree that the Cypriot people are tired in fact exausted of working towards another lame duck solution that runs a very high risk of being rejected yet again.
Dont you feel we should accept that we are flogging a dead horse and the our effort must move in the direction of a viable partition so that we may all move on and all live happily ever after.

No my friend, I do not believe that we have been working for a solution for the last thirty years. Until very recently, Turkey along with Denktash have been declaring that "no solution is the solution". All negotiations since the early 80s were a sham, because they were never in good faith. I am not saying that the GCs have been angels, but we have had some leaders who were willing to make a decent compromise - and yet, the other side was never listening.

All this began to change with the rise of Erdogan, the popular demonstrations of the TCs, the rise of Talat, the prospect of EU membership. Only now, for the first time since the early 80s, is the TC side truly asking for a solution - and therefore only now is it possible to conduct meaningful negotiations.

The horse, therefore, is not dead. It has not even grown up yet ...

[-mikkie2-]

Alexandre,

Well said!

This notion that we were misled is getting beyond a joke. I have countless of times said that Papadopoulos needs to be given a proper chance. He came in after the bulk of the Annan plan was negotiated. He became president and he straight away had to make very important decisions in a very small space of time.

I think now that Turkey needs a solution it is the right time to sit down and negotiate something acceptable to all.

I personally think that Turkey lost the game in Copenhagen 2002 when she refused to negotiate at the Hague before Cyprus signed the Accession Treaty. This is the biggest mistake Turkey made and also it was the biggest favour it made to us because that guaranteed our EU entry as the whole of Cyprus.

The Turks must understand this and there is no way they can turn back the clock so therefore they need to sit down and negotiate taking into account the new realities. This I think is no bad thing. I reckon the TC's have been saved from further intergration with Turkey. I hope in the long run they will see the true benefits of what was achieved.

[insan]

Dear Alexandros
We have worked for a solution for 30 years plans have come and gone surely we can agree that the Cypriot people are tired in fact exausted of working towards another lame duck solution that runs a very high risk of being rejected yet again.
Dont you feel we should accept that we are flogging a dead horse and the our effort must move in the direction of a viable partition so that we may all move on and all live happily ever after.

No my friend, I do not believe that we have been working for a solution for the last thirty years.

Well said Alexandros!

1975 Vienna Agreement, 1977-1979 Summit and High level agreements which are the basis of annan Plan were products of Greeks and GCs!? They were so willing to study on these agreements and sign them!?

Actually, Kyprianou had never embraced these agreements and always had evade to improve them. what he dreaming was what his Master Makarios was dreaming, always. But they played good and manage to create international impressions that the ones who didn't want a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation based upon "political equality" of two communities was Denktash backed by Turkey.(Clap!Clap!Clap)

In 1987, the UN draft proposal had almost nothing different than the philosophy of the Annan Plan. Turkey forced Denktash to go Newyork and sign it. Enentually Denktash went Newyork and signed the agreement that he accepted the UN draft proposal as the basis of new round of negotiations. In the meantime, Kyprianou rejected to sign the agreement as a basis to the new round of negotiations. With arts and wails of politics and with help of the political crisis in turkey, they once again managed to create the impressions that they weren't the one who rejected the UN proposal but it was Denktash and Turkey.

Until very recently, Turkey along with Denktash have been declaring that "no solution is the solution".

This is a myth, created by Hellenic propaganda machine and made Alexandros likes believe that it was really the mentality of Turkey and Denktash.

All negotiations since the early 80s were a sham, because they were never in good faith. I am not saying that the GCs have been angels, but we have had some leaders who were willing to make a decent compromise - and yet, the other side was never listening.

After the EU membership application of GC administartion, Turkish side based its strategy and arguments upon the idea that Cyprus couldn't be a member of any unions that all of the guarantors were not a member of it. They insisted on this idea until late 2003 but couldn't manage to prevent the full EU mebership of Cyprus. As we all can see, EU membership of Cyprus has nothing to do with the solution of Cyprus problem To the contrary, now it is harder than ever to resolve the Cyprus problem.

All this began to change with the rise of Erdogan, the popular demonstrations of the TCs, the rise of Talat, the prospect of EU membership. Only now, for the first time since the early 80s, is the TC side truly asking for a solution - and therefore only now is it possible to conduct meaningful negotiations.

All these began to change when Turkis side failed to prevent the EU membership of Cyprus. Any Government of Turkey would change its strategy after the failure of preventing the EU mebership of Cyprus. There's nothing directly related with Erdogan's government. TC side always and Turkey always truly asked for a solution but as it is well known our solution thesis has always been the opposite of GC's solution thesis. The only difference of now and then is the role of mass media. that's all. There's nothing new.

The horse, therefore, is not dead. It has not even grown up yet ...

The horse is dead but hidden from the public. It will be declared sometime in 2005.

[-mikkie2-]

After the EU membership application of GC administartion, Turkish side based its strategy and arguments upon the idea that Cyprus couldn't be a member of any unions that all of the guarantors were not a member of it.

The Treaty Of Guarantee states:

ARTICLE I
The Republic of Cyprus undertakes to ensure the maintenance of its independence, territorial integrity and security, as well as respect for its Constitution.

It undertakes not to participate, in whole or in part, in any political or economic union with any

State

whatsoever. It accordingly declares prohibited any activity likely to promote, directly or indirectly, either union with any other

State

or partition of the Island.


ARTICLE II
Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom, taking note of the undertakings of the Republic of Cyprus set out in Article I of the present Treaty, recognise and guarantee the independence, territorial integrity and security of the Republic of Cyprus, and also the state of affairs established by the Basic Articles of its Constitution.

Greece, Turkey and the United Kingdom likewise undertake to prohibit, so far as concerns them, any activity aimed at promoting, directly or indirectly, either union of Cyprus with any other State or partition of the Island.

Insan,

These two articles explicity say that the union with another state is forbidden. The EU is an organisation and not a state. The legal aspects of this have been studied and it is only Turkey that objects!

[Alexandros Lordos]

So, Insan, you are saying that Denktash has been waking and sleeping with the concern about how to re-unify Cyprus? Please inform me, because if my mind has been poisoned with propaganda I would like to know.

And the high level agreements were "a product of the Greeks and GCs"? You are really giving a very baffling history lesson today ...

But let's keep talking. Maybe we will find the truth this way.