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Is Division the best Solution???

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby insan » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:56 am

Making a fool of himself, creating enemies the world over, for what? 'To score a goal'? No, no, no... If we are led by such a man, there is no point in discussing anything, in here or wherever.
My feeling is that he is playing for time, (and making a fool of himself, and creating enemies) because he has an actual strategy laid out in his head (which, presumably, is worth the price he is currently paying for his decisions/actions/behavior); one that will turn a lot of heads, in due time.


He knows that "enemies" of Turkey in EU, will never be his enemies also. "Enemies" of Turkey are already the friends of Tassos, anyhow.
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Postby Saint Jimmy » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:03 am

Of course, Viewpoint and Insan, you could both be right, and I could be way off base.
But then, we wouldn't have much to talk about, right? :wink:
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Postby insan » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:07 am

Jimmy,

I just share my view just like you. I'm sorry if I've implied anything that you could be way off base. ;)

sorry m8 :D
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Postby erolz » Tue Mar 01, 2005 2:27 am

Agios Amvrosios wrote:I know very little about the Maastrict Treaty but if you(TC's) were granted partition (a separate state) which I would assume would be in the EU then you may not achieve the lonf term result you desire. Id est an ethnically pure state were only TC can vote.

After a brief period (you will not be able to prevent GC as citizens of the EU from freely moving around in the break away state, voting, becoming candidates in elections and generally enjoying basic democratic EU freedoms:


Well firstly the assumption that we want an ethnically pure state is not correct imo. We want a state where oue will is not subjecgated to a GC will. But even so there are several points here you are missing.

Firstly the rights of non nationals is to vote in muncipal elections and MEP election - NOT in the countires national elections. If GC are happy with such a restriction then the problem goes away - but as I understand it you want the right to live in the TC component state if you chose and to be able to vote in local AND state elections - which means that TC will become an effective political minority in both the GC component state and the TC one.

Secondly the section you refer to also includes

these arrangements may provide for derogation's where warranted by problems specific to a member state.


Agios Amvrosios wrote:I mean, then your "political equality" and whatever else could not be indefinitely guaranteed.


Actually if we were just another recognised state in the EU (your hypothetical senario) then our right to self determination is guaranteed - exactly as any other EU states is (not total - some sovreignty is seeded to the EU but much is retained by the state and non nationals have NO right to vote in a sates national elections, only their local ans 'super national' (EU) elections. You have just misunderstood what the very section of the treaty you posted means.
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Postby -mikkie2- » Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:23 am

In the case of Malta, there is a permanent derogation regarding the rights of other EU citizens to buy property. This is because of the small georaphical area of Malta, its small population and the fact that property prices would skyrocket if left open to the EU wide free market.

As for the original question posed by this thread, well I have been asking this question for a long time. The GC's want unification. The TC's claim they want unification, but with a whole list of restrictions which include restriction of free movement and restriction of voting rights all based around ethnicity.

So, really the TC's need to ask themselves, do they want proper unification? From where I am standing they want a unification that protects them in the sense that they will not be intrfered by the GC's yet they want all the economic benefits of unification! Basically they want the cake and they want to eat it too!
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Postby insan » Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:35 am

As for the original question posed by this thread, well I have been asking this question for a long time. The GC's want unification. The TC's claim they want unification, but with a whole list of restrictions which include restriction of free movement and restriction of voting rights all based around ethnicity.


Most of the restrictions in Annan Plan were temporary as you know, mikkie. But I agree with you that the full political rights of the GCs who would become the permenant residents of TCCs, should be granted; regardless what language they talk. As you might have known their political rights were based upon the language they speak not the etnicity.
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Postby erolz » Tue Mar 01, 2005 3:45 am

-mikkie2- wrote:
So, really the TC's need to ask themselves, do they want proper unification?


Depends what you mean by 'proper unification' I guess

-mikkie2- wrote:
From where I am standing they want a unification that protects them in the sense that they will not be intrfered by the GC's yet they want all the economic benefits of unification! Basically they want the cake and they want to eat it too!


We do not want protection from being 'interfered with' by GC (sounds kinda nasty). We want proctection from politcal decisons that affect our community differently from yours being forced upon us against our will.If you definition of 'real unification' means we can have no such protection - then we do not want (your version - if this is your version) 'real unification' - at least initally.
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:28 am

Dear -mikkie2-
So, really the TC's need to ask themselves, do they want proper unification? From where I am standing they want a unification that protects them in the sense that they will not be intrfered by the GC's yet they want all the economic benefits of unification! Basically they want the cake and they want to eat it too!

The meaning of proper reunificaiton to you means something totally different than what it means to me, thats why for 40 years we have been unable to agree on anything.

If wanting economic benefits and non interference (domination) like every other person in the world equates to wanting you cake and eating it to then yes I want want what every other man has, is that too much to ask?
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Postby Bananiot » Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:10 am

Papadopoulos made a long speech, off text, at his party conference last Saturday. Listening to him talking it was not difficult to arrive at the conclusion that he does not want a solution which will be based on bizonal, bicommunal federation. He is probably looking for a solution based on the London-Zurich agreements. Recently he said that despite voting against these agrements at Lancaster House in 1959, he now realises that he was wrong then. Many of the people that strongly support him have claimed publically that their aim is to go back to those "dreaded" agreements which were described then by those that rejected them by the same, almost, terms the adversaries of the A plan describe the G. Secretary's plan. In fact, those that rejected the deal in 1959 are now strong advocates of those agreements. I would agree with them, had the events between 1963-1974 not happened.
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Postby Viewpoint » Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:18 pm

Bananiot
Recently he said that despite voting against these agrements at Lancaster House in 1959, he now realises that he was wrong then.


Doesnt that make you guys think he may have been wrong about Annan 5 ???
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