Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

You are right when you say that our leaders have been "negotiating" fruitlessly for thirty years now. This is a sad truth. We as the people, however, have only began to communicate very recently. Gradually the walls that have been keeping us artificially apart are falling, gradually we are beginning to understand the reality of our conflicted but also brotherly co-existence ...

I completely agree with you, Alexandros. And believe me lifting the economic sanctions being imposed upon TC community will accelerate the speed of rapproachment and reconciliation between two communities; excatly the same way it has been effective afterwards 1967, when GC leadership consented to lift the embargos being imposed upon TC community. As it was acknowledged by Clerides, if GC far-right in cooperation with Greek far-right hadn't made the coup and if Makarios had accepted the counter-proposals of Turkish Side; both parties would have been satisfied with a much more improved constitution and a more democratic governance system.

Also, shouldn't be forgotten that lifting the economic sanctions being imposed upon TC community will also help a lot to reduce the cost of reunification.

[boulio]

and also giving back varhosa to its rightful owners would do the same insan correct,speeding up reapprochment?

[insan]

and also giving back varhosa to its rightful owners would do the same insan correct,speeding up reapprochment?

I agree. Not only Varosha but Turkish side should begin gradually returning %25 of the occupied land to GC administration. Besides, Turkish side should begin gradually calling back the GC refugee families return to their homes in North. Turkish side can do these unilaterally, either embargos are lifted or not. However gradual reduction of military power in North should be done bilaterally.

[turkcyp]

I agree. Not only Varosha but Turkish side should begin gradually returning %25 of the occupied land to GC administration. Besides, Turkish side should begin gradually calling back the GC refugee families return to their homes in North. Turkish side can do these unilaterally, either embargos are lifted or not. However gradual reduction of military power in North should be done bilaterally.

How are you proposing these done insan,

Under which constitutional agreement. How can authorities in the north just give land back to GCs without a comprehensive solution? I mean there has to be some legal procedure and rules that should be applied if you own a property. Which laws, rules, procedures will be applied to the refugess that are given back their properties?

If there was a comprehensive solution then there would not be such an issue. But under today's circumstances there two ways TC side can do what you propose:
a)either by giving them full TRNC citizenship and full TRNC deeds, which I assume no GC would accept. Or another way is
b) just abolishing TRNC and start applying RoC laws in the north, which I assume GCs still would not accepts because the appliers of those laws are not officially RoC member. (and I do not think any TC would support such a move without a comprehensive solution anyway)

I do not what how you are proposing to do these. Clarify yourself please, because it seems to me what you are proposing is infeasible.

Basically there are three ways out. One (comprehensive solution) is dead now, so we are left with two possibilities, which are impractical.

Take care,

[Viewpoint]

Dear Alexandros

Thanks for input and understanding, it is your profession after all and obviously you are very successful at it.

As you quite rightly said peace for me is paramount I dont my children to live in a Cyprus united or not where they have to live in fear of being belittled or discriminated in their own country, they can go and live in someone elses country and be a minority there.

I as TC am sick & tired of fruitless negotiations, both communities have very valid arguements on many issues and a tortured history, therefore we cannot meet on middle ground to agree any solution, which we have reconfirmed time and time again over 30 years. The main reason we do not see eye to eye is TRUST, it clouds our judgement and on any subject however irrelevent we activate a defence mechanism which produces counter arguements, a certain degree of this exists in all of us.

So my arguement is that why force 2 communities which do not trust each to try and build a unitified cyprus, we have tried this avenue via the Annan plan and it didnt work.
I have nothing against GCs, and wish peace and safety to all Cypriots.
All these arguements and disagreements will go on and on for many years, why not depart from the constant head bashing we give each other and respect the fact that if we cant use the island together then we should share it, as good neighbours.

[insan]

I agree. Not only Varosha but Turkish side should begin gradually returning %25 of the occupied land to GC administration. Besides, Turkish side should begin gradually calling back the GC refugee families return to their homes in North. Turkish side can do these unilaterally, either embargos are lifted or not. However gradual reduction of military power in North should be done bilaterally.

turkcyp wrote:

How are you proposing these done insan,

Under which constitutional agreement. How can authorities in the north just give land back to GCs without a comprehensive solution? I mean there has to be some legal procedure and rules that should be applied if you own a property. Which laws, rules, procedures will be applied to the refugess that are given back their properties?

I don't think we need a comprehensive solution to begin slowly slowly solving some portions of components of Cyprus Problem. According to 3rd Vienna Agreement, 1977 summit and 1979 high level agreements both parties should have fulfilled their obligations for the citizens of Cyprus. None of them fulfilled these obligations. As we always emphasize; two wrongs don't make one correct. Thus, I believe that Turkish side should unilaterally fulfill its obligations within the bounds of those agreements and according to its economical means. I believe that Turkish side is able to unilaterally achieve gradual returning of land to GC administartion. And for instance it is not hard to evacuate one of the Karpasia villages that purely inhabitted by settlers in order to invite 50 or hundred GC refugee families to return to their homes.

If there was a comprehensive solution then there would not be such an issue. But under today's circumstances there two ways TC side can do what you propose:
a)either by giving them full TRNC citizenship and full TRNC deeds, which I assume no GC would accept.

Until a comprehensive solution is reached they can maintain their lives in North like all other GCs do. Even they should be allowed to participate in their own elections in South until a comprehensive solution is reached.

Or another way is
b) just abolishing TRNC and start applying RoC laws in the north, which I assume GCs still would not accepts because the appliers of those laws are not officially RoC member. (and I do not think any TC would support such a move without a comprehensive solution anyway)

We don't need RoC laws to achieve these simple steps. All necessary laws can be made and passed in parliament of North. I have no idea if majority of TCs would support such and idea or not but I'm sure if the TC leadership well explains them that the legal basis of this steps exists in the mutually ratified agreements then I guess majority of TCs would give support to it. And if these steps bring onto agenda together with lifting of economic sanctions; there's no doubt, majority of TC would accept this proposal.

Take care,

You too.

[turkcyp]

So basically you are trying to invent a fourth way which can not work.

Until a comprehensive solution is reached they can maintain their lives in North like all other GCs do. Even they should be allowed to participate in their own elections in South until a comprehensive solution is reached

We do not need RoC laws to achieve these simple steps. All necessary laws can be made and passed in parliament of North. I have no idea if majority of TCs would support such and idea or not but I'm sure if the TC leadership well explains them that the legal basis of this steps exists in the mutually ratified agreements then I guess majority of TCs would give support to it. And if these steps bring onto agenda together with lifting of economic sanctions; there's no doubt, majority of TC would accept this proposal.

You are misunderstanding me. I am not talig about the law to give them thier property back. I am talking about the law that they will be subject to after they are reinstated.

Let's say we have given back their properties back to refugees. Then after that what laws are going to applicable to these people. I mean few hundred GCs are easy to sort out but thousands of GC moving to north outside control of RoC and not beign subject to anykind of law before any solution seems incomprehensable to me.

And for your sake let's assume that none of these refugees actuallymoved to north, but simply keep their empty properties whic are vacated by TC, as a secondary home. Even then there has to be some sort of real estate laws taht has to be administered on these peope at the minimum. (I am not even getting into the fact that some of them may decide to live in north)

Assume they want to build something to their backyard. Where are they going to get the permit. Assume they get into car accident, where are they going to be sued. Assume they start living in north, are they going to pay any taxes.

(I am not even getting into practical imposibility of doing this wihout solution, as this means that every TC that has left south will have to move to another property, where are we going to get this property. Are you suggesting that we turn back to south. Then what is the point of discussing bizonality in the first place if everythingis hoing to be turning back pre 1974)

Basically what I am saying is this thousands of people moving to north and be subject to no law is impossible. We can turn a blind eye on couple of hundred but the same you can not do for thousands.

So in short your proposal can only work only under three scenario.
a) comprehensive solution, the get their land back.
b) move to north give them full TRNC citizendhip, and they get their land back fully participating every decision of TRNC unhindered, undiscriminated.
c) abolish TRNC and start applying RoC laws in north, so they get their land back.

I am sorry to say, there is no fourth way.

A while ago, I have written down in this forum about what TRNC goverment should do. And all these would be a part of that plan. But that was assuming that all GC that move to north wouldbe treated either like Brits moving to north, or they become TRNC citizen, in either case TRNC laws would be applicable.

But I doubt any GC would accept any plan that they move to north and not be subject to RoC administration rules.

Anyway it was nice brainstorming with you,

[insan]

We can turn a blind eye on couple of hundred but the same you can not do for thousands.

It wouldn't be bad to begin with Varosha, couple of hundreds GC refugee families and couple of thousands donums of agricaltural land of Mesarya savanna.

The principal aim here is to give them the message that even though we couldn't have agreed upon a comprehensive solution plan; we wish to fulfill our obligations towards GC refugees, within the bounds of mutually ratified agreements and according to our economical, social, psychological means.

Anyway it was nice brainstorming with you.

Yes, likewise. Thanks for sharing your views and contribution to this thread.

[Piratis]

Viewpoint, as you said I am one of those who would be willing to accept an 82%-18% kind of partition (not any other kind), if as you say we can never agree to live together under fair terms.

However, I disagree that such kind of solution is the best we can do. Do you think that with partition you will be truly independent, and you will manage to prosper as a community more than in a united Cyprus or by returning to RoC?
Personally I believe this is not the best for you, since you will be run by Turkey, Turkey will not withdraw any of her troops and you will continue to be a big military base, more settlers will come in and your unique identity will disappear. (remember that after such solution, Turkey will not need to separate herself and "TRNC" for political reasons, but it will be for her interest the further integration of "TRNC" to Turkey).
So your dream about absolute independence is just a dream, and in my opinion you will get a lot more independence, freedom and prosperity under RoC (or another form of truly United Cyprus), than under Turkey.

However, you can not have the best of two worlds either (a disguised partition like the Annan plan), so at least is good that you recognize that such thing is not an option for you and you will have to make some choices. Personally I believe you made they wrong choice though, because you trust GCs less than you should, and Turkey more than you should.

You are the 18% of Cypriots, but just the 0.5% of Turks. Since absolute independence in reality is not a choice for you, if I was a Turkish Cypriot I would prefer to be the 18% of Cypriots rather than the 0.5% of Turks.

[insan]

However, I disagree that such kind of solution is the best we can do. Do you think that with partition you will be truly independent, and you will manage to prosper as a community more than in a united Cyprus or by returning to RoC?

In my opinion having good relations with Turkey as a seperate state is much more safe and beneficial than being a minority in a GC state.

Personally I believe this is not the best for you, since you will be run by Turkey, Turkey will not withdraw any of her troops and you will continue to be a big military base, more settlers will come in and your unique identity will disappear.

Turkey does not need to run us as long as the relations base upon mutual consultation. As long as those Turkish troops do their job and only show concern for security issues there's no problem for me and I don't think majority of TCs would consider it as a problem. Settlers issue can easily be solved by implementing strict laws about the immigrants. TCs unique identity has never disappeared and will never diappear. Until now no Turkish governments has forced us to lose our unique communal identity.

(remember that after such solution, Turkey will not need to separate herself and "TRNC" for political reasons, but it will be for her interest the further integration of "TRNC" to Turkey).

As long as there has been a 40 miles of sea gap between Turkey and Northern Cyprus our relations will be based upon political, economical, defence and cultural cooperation.

So your dream about absolute independence is just a dream, and in my opinion you will get a lot more independence, freedom and prosperity under RoC (or another form of truly United Cyprus), than under Turkey.

For small countries in strategic locations, absolute independence is already a dream, anyway.

You are the 18% of Cypriots, but just the 0.5% of Turks. Since absolute independence in reality is not a choice for you, if I was a Turkish Cypriot I would prefer to be the 18% of Cypriots rather than the 0.5% of Turks.

For me, the best would be living in a united Cyprus that based upon "political equality" of two communities if not possible living in a seperate TC state is my alternative.