Cyprus-Forum.com

[Greek Cypriot]

the following is for both TC and GC.

The age of heros is over. (and in any case, heros never formed a percentage among any population). What all people want is a better life. If they are 100% satisfied with the way their lifes are then they want to keep their well being at the same level.
With well-being I am talking about all the things that can impoove our life - money (lets face it!), security, health, democracy etc.

Nobody wants his well being to be reduced. Nobody is going to sucrifice the quality of his/her life and future for some others (except if they are family or close friends).

So today we have this plan. Lets cut the crap. If you think this plan will benefit you, your family, your future, you will vote yes. If you think this plan will be bad for you will vote no.

The only point that is left for discussion is this: "Do you really understand what will benefit you most"? Read the plan, listen to others, and come to your own conclusion.

So it is really worthless to say if this plan is *good* or *bad*. What is good for you might not be for me, and vise versa.

I can vote what is good for me, without having any conscience problems. I am not the one living in a stolen property.

[michalis]

If I have understood your message is Lets DIVIDE THE ISLAND or am I wrong ?

So why are we going to negotiations !

WHAT A HYPOCRICY !!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[Greek Cypriot]

how old are you?

[metecyp]

I can vote what is good for me, without having any conscience problems. I am not the one living in a stolen property.

But you're the one living in a "stolen" republic and you made the whole world believe that what you have is right, although you know that it's not. You also put this "stolen" republic into EU and now when T/Cs start claiming their rights back, you start screaming that you are not going to accept less than what you have. Let me remind you again, what you seem to have is not yours.

How are we going to make peace when you call T/C thieves? Yes, there are some T/Cs who had nothing before 1974, and then they got rich after 1974 because they got more properties in the north than they left in the south, I call these people thieves too! But, as I explained before, my generation had no chance of choosing where to live, so we're thieves now?

So today we have this plan. Lets cut the crap. If you think this plan will benefit you, your family, your future, you will vote yes. If you think this plan will be bad for you will vote no.

Yes, but there will be no plan where nobody makes no sacrifice. T/Cs will give back land, and move out of refuge houses, and become refuges themselves again. G/Cs will start sharing the political power and their economy will get worse initially and so on. You have to understand that peace doesn't come free.

The current situation is the worst of all situations. It might be good for you personally and economically, but it's thr worst to whole Cyprus. Division needs to end, generations need to start growing up together, children should start learning Greek and Turkish. These are more important for me because in the end these values will help Cyprus, not a perfect economy.

[antonis]

I disagree with your thesis greek cypriot and I think you know where I disagree. I see this as a chance for the island to be united, a chance for peace for me and my children. I do not want an island with 40000 turkish troops, millions of pounds spent on military equipment.

We knew what the plan would be like. "It didn't come from the sky" said de Soto. It's based on earlier sets of ideas. Most people are "surprised".

Yes, the situation will change after a solution. You claim that this is going to be for the worse. You are used to the division of the island, you are used to this status. This reminded me of an article I read some time ago, read it and try to understand the meaning.

http://www.cyprusmedianet.com/EN/article/10631?

[metecyp]

Dear antonis,

I've just read the article you mentioned. It's wonderful, thanks for pointing it out. The article summarizes many of the points I was trying to make in this forum.

[cannedmoose]

As a response to the points made about the consequences of voting either way, I would like to say the following (responses very welcome).

The Annan Plan is imperfect, it is bound to be in that it is a compromise document and not a panacea, but it is the only realistic plan on the table.

With the entire international community pushing for this to happen (you must remember that Cypriots - of all extractions - have never really controlled their own destiny), we must all accept that there will not be huge amendments to the Plan as it currently exists. The truth is that the rest of the world is not greatly interested in the Cyprus problem at a theoretical level, but regards it as a pain to be solved as quickly as possible.

It does require greater sacrifices by Greek-Cypriots, which consequently (as unpalatable as it may be) means that Turkey did gain from its invasion, but Cyprus is neither powerful nor important enough to prevent or reverse these gains.

Therefore, if Greek-Cypriots do reject the Plan, some of the consequences will be:

1. Recognition of the TRNC by the Organisation of Islamic States and other countries. In other words the TRNC will no longer be regarded as a pariah state and will begin to enjoy the international investment and recognition that it has lacked, thus increasing the legitimacy of its claim to statehood;
2. Turkish troops will retain a permanent foothold on the island, thus achieving the strategic aim of a permanent Turkish mainland presence in Cyprus (under the Annan Plan, it is envisaged that all foreign forces will be withdrawn upon Turkey's accession to the EU... which will happen, eventually);
3. A potential mass migration of Turkish-Cypriots to the rest of the EU using their Republic of Cyprus passports, leaving the north occupied purely by settlers from mainland Turkey;
4. Other European Union states will be less inclined to side with the Republic of Cyprus and more amenable to dialogue with the TRNC.

As a non-Cypriot but (for my sins) married into a Cypriot family, I do sympathise with the dilemma that many Cypriot voters will face on April 21st. My conclusion from studying the Annan Plan and assessing Cyprus' place in the world as a whole is that the Plan is the best and only option going forward. As someone with friends on both sides of the Green Line, my hope is that a "yes" vote will come through and collectively we can begin to work through our differences... the island is too small a place for so much hate.

[michalis]

It is time to acknowledge the mistakes and Faults did in the PAST by both Tcs and Gcs and come forward with a different attitude towards building Peace.

Unless we realise the mistakes that have been done by both sides it will be hard to move forward.

[Greek Cypriot]

But you're the one living in a "stolen" republic...

Wrong. You are free to come back to the republic whenever your want. The Turkish army is the one dividing the island, not us!!
Are we free to go get our homes and properties?
Nothing is stolem from us. Don't try to make everything equal when it is not.

T/Cs will give back land, and move out of refuge houses, and become refuges themselves again...

I see. So they are going to make a sucrifice? Please, we are not fools. If they vote "yes" it means they balanced the "pluses" and "minuses" and decided that the pluses for them are more and therefore is for their benefit to vote "yes". For the majority of GC when they balance the "pluses" and "minuses" the minuses are much more and thats why they will vote "no".

Yes, the situation will change after a solution. You claim that this is going to be for the worse, I believe that it is going to be for the better. [/qoute]
If you think it is going to be better for you then by all means vote "yes". It is obvious that some people will be better off after such a solution and some will suffer. The point is that for a solution to be acceptable it should be the one that at least will benefit the majority of people.

You are used to the division of the island, you are used to this status. This reminded me of an article I read some time ago, read it and try to understand the meaning.

Yes, we are used to the division. Not because of Denctash. Because we know that in this world their is no justice, and everything is based on the balance of power.


Annan's plan is a plan for division. It is not a solution, but it creates more problems.


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cannedmoose,

We will not vote for anything just because they threaten us like that.

[metecyp]

You are free to come back to the republic whenever your want

Keep trying. If you are so sincere about me coming back to the republic, you wouldn't take Turkish out of every official building, every road sign, every government document. It's not until recently that Turkish is getting back into RC, and not because of your good will but because of EU. What you are asking is "Come back to the Greek Cypriot republic and live like a minority"

The Turkish army is the one dividing the island, not us!!

I didn't claim otherwise, but your side gives lots of material for politicians in the north to make T/Cs believe that the Turkish army is needed for their protection. Without your help, no T/C would believe such things.

Don't try to make everything equal when it is not.

I'm not trying to equate anything here. I feel for 200.000 Greek Cypriot refugees and I hope most of them return back to their homes after Annan plan. What hapenned to them was wrong, and I do not approve it. The same way what happenned to T/C rights in RC was wrong, and I do not approve that either.

See, there's no completely right and completely wrong side in Cyprus. Both sides have lost their people in conflicts, both sides have refuges, both sides made numerous mistakes. It's useless to get into an argument of "who's more guilty" because we're both guilty and this should be our starting point.

The point is that for a solution to be acceptable it should be the one that at least will benefit the majority of people.

Agreed. But what we don't agree is that you emphasize the immediate loss to your side due to Annan plan and I emphasize the huge long-run benefits of the Annan plan to whole Cyprus.