Cyprus-Forum.com

[Alexandros Lordos]

Predictions form paunch. You couldn't of course. As long as it suits you. Otherwise, all others are hiding behind the words and fantasies.

Insan,

whenever I say something rude or insulting you never miss pointing it out (and I appreciate you doing that), but here you are doing the same thing.

If GCs being insulting alienates TCs and fragments our society, don't you think the same holds true the other way round as well?

If you don't like what MicAtCyp or Piratis are saying, use arguments.

[insan]

Hi Alexandros,

First he asked what were our opinions about the issue. We replied wholeheartly. Then he came with a ridiculous argument that we were hiding behind the words and fantasies. what could I say someone like MicAtCyp. This was the last time though. I will not ansver the questions of MicAtCyp and all others who have the similar or same behaviours. This is the best solution evading being situations like this.

Have a good night Alexandros.

[Alexandros Lordos]

Have a good night Alexandros.

You too ...

[erolz]

Would you personally have any fears today if everything returned according to the 1960 agreements?

I personaly would not have fears (for myself) in such a senario. I am actually a bit of a nutter with a fatalisitic longing to be the person standing in front of the tank in Tianamen square with a flower. I do however understand and accept (for example) my aunts fears of returning to a state of affairs that brought her personally so much tradgey and pain and suffering and do not write these fears off as simply a desire to leagise anything or steal anything.

Maybe I am willing to discuss such case if it proves to be the "least bad" of bad feasible options. However this doesn't mean is legal. I know most countries consider any kind of attempt to brake up the country as illegal.

Now you are starting to scare me again

Nobody says scottish nationalists in the UK that call for an independent Scotland (or welsh) should be stopped by law for making such calls (thankfully). Certainly if they start burning down house of English living in scotland the law should and does take action. But to just say 'we want independance' is not a criminal act (in the UK at least).
Do you think Cyprus (united or not) should enact laws that make the peacful and non violent request for independance of part of the state to be illegal? I certainly would not like to live in such a country myself.

[Piratis]

I personaly would not have fears (for myself) in such a senario. I am actually a bit of a nutter with a fatalisitic longing to be the person standing in front of the tank in Tianamen square with a flower. I do however understand and accept (for example) my aunts fears of returning to a state of affairs that brought her personally so much tradgey and pain and suffering and do not write these fears off as simply a desire to leagise anything or steal anything.

You see, most TCs that I asked personally they said something similar. That they are not afraid, but some others do. So ok, I can understand that your aunt had a very traumatic experience that she can not get over with. However that doesn't mean that the grand children of your aunt should feel in the same way. This is why I said several times that a transitional period is needed for many purposes, one of which is to accommodate the needs of people like your aunt. Actually the transitional period could be long enough, say 30 years, and after such a long period most people that carry with them the bad experiences of the past will be dead, and the future generations would not be convicted forever because of the bad things 1-2 generations did. So I am willing if I pay the cost of the past mistakes, but I am not willing to convict my children and grand children. That would be unfair.

Do you think Cyprus (united or not) should enact laws that make the peacful and non violent request for independance of part of the state to be illegal? I certainly would not like to live in such a country myself.

I don't think that simply saying something should be illegal. I believe in the freedom of speech. For example in the USA some Texas fly the Texan flag from when Texas was an independent country and they say that Texas should be independent etc. As long as such things are just talking there is no problem. However the state should make sure that it doesn't progress into something more than just talking. I believe all countries would do everything in order to protect their integrity.

[erolz]

However that doesn't mean that the grand children of your aunt should feel in the same way.

Actually her son who has recently returned to Cyprus (after living in the UK and USA and marrying a USA lady) has no such fears either. He is planning to build a house in the long term but needs to rent in the short term (2 years or so) and can not find suitable long term rental accomodation in the North is considering the south as an option. His only concern is the distress this may cause his mother. Also his 5 children attend the english school in the south. They cross the border twice each day to drop them off and pick them up.

I don't think that simply saying something should be illegal. I believe in the freedom of speech. For example in the USA some Texas fly the Texan flag from when Texas was an independent country and they say that Texas should be independent etc. As long as such things are just talking there is no problem. However the state should make sure that it doesn't progress into something more than just talking. I believe all countries would do everything in order to protect their integrity.

And for me when that 'anything' extends to oppressing those that threaten it they no longer have a country worth protecting - but thats just me.

[-mikkie2-]

First he asked what were our opinions about the issue. We replied wholeheartly. Then he came with a ridiculous argument that we were hiding behind the words and fantasies. what could I say someone like MicAtCyp. This was the last time though. I will not ansver the questions of MicAtCyp and all others who have the similar or same behaviours. This is the best solution evading being situations like this.

Insan,

Why do you act like a spoilt child? You always seem to have a tantrum when someone disagrees with you re.

[insan]

First he asked what were our opinions about the issue. We replied wholeheartly. Then he came with a ridiculous argument that we were hiding behind the words and fantasies. what could I say someone like MicAtCyp. This was the last time though. I will not ansver the questions of MicAtCyp and all others who have the similar or same behaviours. This is the best solution evading being situations like this.

Insan,

Why do you act like a spoilt child? You always seem to have a tantrum when someone disagrees with you re.

mikkie, many times I told you that everyone is free to agree or disagree with me. But the case here is different. MicAtCyp might say that he was disagree with me and put his own arguments. But he once again behaved like a nerdish and told us that we were hiding behind the words and and fantasies. Moreover accused us with stiffness. So why does he need to ask us questiones specifically calling with our names? It is easy for all of us to come up with such ridiculous, meaningless expressions. I may well respond him, "No we are not hiding behind the words and fantasies, actually you are hiding yourself behind the words and fantasies. You are so disingenuous"

Then where would this meaningless conservation lead us?


Have a nice time mikkie.

[metecyp]

Metecyp

Please! This is preposterous! Allow foreign nationals to come to Rhodes on a short term stay without passports?

Mikkie, this was just a quick example I could think of while having my morning coffee half asleep. I wasn't expecting anyone to take it literally. I was just trying to point out how 5% Turks in Rhodos has nothing to say in terms of relations of Rhodos with Turkey. I agree it wasn't a good example, maybe I should have said "without visas" instead of passports, but this wasn't the point anyway.

What MicAtCyp is pointing out is that the Rhodian Turks benefit from POSITIVE discrimination at many levels. Remeber this positive discrimination argument you had a while back? Something that you advocate I believe and you used the US as an example.

Yes, I believe in positive discrimination to make the field plain for everyone but positive discrimination for TCs does not, for example, block Enosis if GCs decide to proceed with it, but equality of communities on certain important matters does. That was my point.

The example of Metecyp, that according to him the 5% of Turks in Rhodes should be able to decide by itself the foreign relations of the whole country proves this.

I didn't say 5% Turks should be able to decide the foreign relations of the whole country. I said they have no power whatsoever in shaping the relationship between Rhodos and Turkey because they're 5% of the island and with or without positive discrimination, they'll never have any say.

As I said before, what some TCs are actually asking for is independence (= partition, standard or disguised). They know that such thing is illegal, so they are simply trying to camouflage their demands no

What we ask is simple. Political equality of two communities. That's what the RoC was based on so we just want you to accept the basic principles of the RoC. Personally, political equality in everything is not that important to me as long as there's political equality in matters that might affect the two communities differently (thanks Erol for this description). Unfortunately, what you want to do is to go even further back, get rid of the privileges given in the RoC, as if TCs organized the coup and as if TCs opressed GCs for 11 years.

[Piratis]

Unfortunately, what you want to do is to go even further back, get rid of the privileges given in the RoC, as if TCs organized the coup and as if TCs opressed GCs for 11 years.

I said about 100 times already that you can end the occupation and get back RoC as agreed in 1960 without a single change.

Maybe GCs acted in a criminal way for 11 years, but TCs have acting in a criminal way for 30 years. So why should GCs be punished and TCs get rewarded? The same way you do not accept to go "further back" I do not accept either.

So you can have RoC as agreed in 1960. If you want to change it, then you get something and you give something from the 1960 agreements. Apparently you only want to get.

Actually her son who has recently returned to Cyprus (after living in the UK and USA and marrying a USA lady) has no such fears either.

This is good. It shows that while your aunt was hurt, that didn't make her brainwash her children with hate propaganda.

And for me when that 'anything' extends to oppressing those that threaten it they no longer have a country worth protecting - but thats just me.

Are you a bit anarchist like MicAtCyp too?
I didn't say that the state should oppress anybody. Stopping some people from braking up the country is not oppression, is protecting the interests of the population of the country as a whole. I mean if group X decides that wants independence and the part of country they want includes your home and your whole property, wouldn't you expect the state to protect you?