Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Erol lets suppose this is the case.Lets suppose in a United Cyprus you will be "dominated" the same way your father as an insignifigant minority immigrant was dominated when he emmigrated in the UK.Do you honestly beleive that in such a united Cyprus, in 2005, inside Europe: you will be killed, you will be deprived your properties, you will be attacked, you will not have free movement, you will not be able to prosper, have bussiness, earn money, get equal salary, have the same opportunities, you will not have everything a human person wants exactly the same way every other citizen of the republic would have?Or you think you will have 99% of all those or 98% or lets say 50% of those? Specify me the percentage please. I will insist on that, I want to know the percentage!!

The fact is that you would not be happy to be living in a British controlled Cyprus even as a UK citizen with all the equal rights and protections of any other UK citizen, with no fear of attack or any other discrimination etc. Or maybe you would not mind? Maybe this then is the 'solution'? To return Cyrpus to the UK and both communites can be 'political minorites' in their own homeland - with the full rights of any other UK citizen?
It is one thing to chose to go and live as an immigrant in another country and to be told you must live as a immigrant (political minority) in your own. There is no oppression of Scots in the UK and they have much independance - yet many sstill want full independance. Why is that?

[erolz]

my apologies.

Thank you for your gracious reply.

[Piratis]

There is no oppression of Scots in the UK and they have much independence - yet many sstill want full independance. Why is that?

Scotland belongs to the Scottish, so if they want full independence thats their right. On the other hand, TCs do not own any specific part of land, and they were not even the majority in any area. You keep ignoring this simple fact, but this is the essential difference between A) "numerically less" groups that own a specific part of the country, and B) "numerically less" groups that do not own a specific part of country.

Whenever you want to excuse your demands you bring up examples of "A" (which have nothing to do with our case), can you bring any examples of "B" that got what you are asking for?

[erolz]

Scotland belongs to the Scottish, so if they want full independence thats their right. On the other hand, TCs do not own any specific part of land, and they were not even the majority in any area. You keep ignoring this simple fact, but this is the essential difference between A) "numerically less" groups that own a specific part of the country, and B) "numerically less" groups that do not own a specific part of country.

Whenever you want to excuse your demands you bring up examples of "A" (which have nothing to do with our case), can you bring any examples of "B" that got what you are asking for?

Are you really saying that if we were all in one area you would accept our rights as a community (or even as a people) but if we are spread out you do not? That if TC had been concentrated in a single area in the 60's that GC would have happily (or even grudgingly) accepted 'seperation' and 'independance' of the two communites in Cyprus?

Certainly being concentrated in a single area makes the process of seperation and independance 'easier' - but it does not change the principal of the rights of a community or the right to self determination. At best it makes the realisation of it easier but it does not change the principal - at least to my mind.

[Piratis]

Are you really saying that if we were all in one area you would accept our rights as a community (or even as a people) but if we are spread out you do not?

First of all, I accept all your rights as a community!!

If you historically and legally owned an area (e.g. like the Scottish, the Chechens the Kurds etc), and you were the clear majority in that area, then I wouldn't have a problem if you took the area that belonged to you and made it independent and do whatever you want with it. (as long as you respected the human and minority rights of any minority of GCs that would live there).

However, when you do not own an area, you can not say that you have any right for grabbing an area that does not belong to you and give the excuse of "self determination".

TCs and GCs own the whole Cyprus together as Cyprus citizens. (in my ID is written "Cypriot" not "Greek Cypriot") The only way to split it, is if we all agree to do so, but nobody has the right of doing such thing unilaterally. This is even true for the case of federation. Having a federal state is not your right, it can become legal only if we, the others that own the whole island along with you, agree to do so.

Your rights are the rights of Cyprus citizens + the rights of a community as a whole + the extra legal rights that you got with the 1960 agreements (and while some of those are unfair,e.g. 30% of government positions, nobody can remove them from you if you decide that you want to return to the 1960 agreements).

[erolz]

First of all, I accept all your rights as a community!!

That is good then - however we must be sure that what you consider to be our rights as a community are the same as what we consider them to be. With all due respect I am not sure that we do agree this.

If you historically and legally owned an area (e.g. like the Scottish, the Chechens the Kurds etc), and you were the clear majority in that area, then I wouldn't have a problem if you took the area that belonged to you and made it independent and do whatever you want with it. (as long as you respected the human and minority rights of any minority of GCs that would live there).

So if we had say purchased legally land in a concentrated area leading upto 1960 , you would have been happy for TC to declare an independant state in Cyprus? Do you think that would have been acceptable to the majority of GC in 1960? Or now?

However, when you do not own an area, you can not say that you have any right for grabbing an area that does not belong to you and give the excuse of "self determination".

And (for the umpteeth time) I have never said that and still do not say it today. What I say is that the refusal of the GC community in Cyprus to accept our rights as an (equal) partner community in Cyprus is what led to the disaterous (to both TC and GC but especially GC) events of 74. I do not say 'self determination' gave us a RIGHT to take land from you - I say you refusal to accept those rights is what caused you to lose land in 74. Can you see the difference?

TCs and GCs own the whole Cyprus together as Cyprus citizens. (in my ID is written "Cypriot" not "Greek Cypriot") The only way to split it, is if we all agree to do so, but nobody has the right of doing such thing unilaterally. This is even true for the case of federation. Having a federal state is not your right, it can become legal only if we, the others that own the whole island along with you, agree to do so.

But what happens if GC both refuse to agree to split Cyprus and refuse to accept the TC communites rights in an unsplit Cyprus? What happens in such a senario? TC just 'accept that'? Or are they justifed to 'struggle' to gain their rights?

Your rights are the rights of Cyprus citizens + the rights of a community as a whole + the extra legal rights that you got with the 1960 agreements (and while some of those are unfair,e.g. 30% of government positions, nobody can remove them from you if you decide that you want to return to the 1960 agreements).

If what you say above is sincere and if you had been the leader of the GC community in 1960 then maybe we would all be living in peace and harmony in a paradise today. You say that nobody can remove the rights that TC were granted in 1960 agreements (fair or not) - but this is exactly what GC tried to do and did do, is it not? Do you doubt that there was a concerted and definate 'strategy' to do this by GC leadership in the 60's and onwards?

[Piratis]

That is good then - however we must be sure that what you consider to be our rights as a community are the same as what we consider them to be. With all due respect I am not sure that we do agree this.

I believe in another thread we discussed what things are included in community rights and what not.

So if we had say purchased legally land in a concentrated area leading upto 1960 , you would have been happy for TC to declare an independent state in Cyprus? Do you think that would have been acceptable to the majority of GC in 1960? Or now?

Purchasing some land by itself doesn't give you the right to declare that part of land independent. I gave you examples (Scottish, Kurds etc) that own and have been historically living in a specific area.
However, the 18%-82% partition I am willing to accept is something like that. You basically buy a concentrated area by giving up an equal amount of land elsewhere, and then we assume that we can never live together peacefully, so we skip the 100s of years that are required to make that area historically yours and we "brake up" now to save ourselves from the future problems. I repeat that this is not what I want, but if there is no way for you to accept to be with us, and you want separation, then better this standard separation rather then a disguised one.

[MicAtCyp]

Erol you did not answer my question. Why? Is it so difficult?

I WANT TO KNOW THE PERCENTAGE PLEASE

Metecyp neither you did.
Any volunteers, Insan, brother, Turkcyp (where are you re?)

[insan]

Mihalis, I'm not a fortune teller to give you an accurate percentage but the hardcore opposition on historical facts, prejudices and hostile attitudes in hearts and souls of considerable amount of Cypriots give me the impression that a TC minority only protected by the laws is doomed to accept GC version of history. But they don't accept your version of history and this will cause tensions, resentment, disputes, plots, bloody fightings, murderings, assasinations, organized crime, retaliation etc. among the members of two communities.

Now you guess the percentage, because I'm not a fortune teller. I can only tell you about the highly probable to be occure events.

[metecyp]

I WANT TO KNOW THE PERCENTAGE PLEASE

I didn't answer because what you asked doesn't make sense and whatever I say is nothing but a prediction.