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CLOSE THE GATES!

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Do you agree with Pantelis' assertion that pre-April 2003 Green Line restrictions should be re-imposed?

Poll ended at Sat Mar 05, 2005 8:26 pm

Yes
2
15%
No
10
77%
Don't know/Not Sure
1
8%
 
Total votes : 13

Postby antonis » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:14 pm

metecyp wrote: I think the RoC could have used the situation better.

I totally agree. At the time certain politicians were saying that the demand that people crossing the checkpoints show their passports instead of IDs was unacceptable. And of course the biggest fear amongst the GCs is recognition of any sort of administration in the north. When the attorney general said that showing passports doesn't mean anything, then people started pouring in. But the first reaction was completely wrong, and if that was different then things would be different now.

Of course what the RoC was hoping was that noone would cross to the north, putting more pressure to the other side so that the passport request would be lifted. Didn't happen of course, as certain people didn't care, and anyway the attorney general (who came from DISY at the time) had explained that ordinary people cannot recognize states from day 1.
For example, right after the borders opened, the RoC could have asked TCs to fill their positions in the RoC and maybe a commitee of TCs and GCs could have been formed in the RoC to work on a possible solution. Or a TC could have been sent to the EU to represent the Cyprus delegation.

First of all, you have to accept that however sincere a proposal from the RoC on this could have been made, the words that would come from the mouths of Eroglu and Denktas, the players at the time, would be that it's a "GC trick" to embark on the "GC train" and that we are trying to use TCs to "patch the RoC". Filling in the TC posts would definitely be a shocking proposal, but to tell you the truth the only people that would propose that are hardliners right-wing... that envision a unified state, and they know a priori that TCs would reject it. That may have brought a tension in both sides.

Don't forget one thing metecyp. On the 12th March 1998, Clerides proposed a formula for TC representation in the negotiating team. The TCs could choose their representatives in the team, and if there wouldn't be agreement in the TCs and GCs participating in it about an EU issue, that issue would be dealt with later on in the negotiations. Also at the time, Clerides asked to make possible the resumption of preferential trade to the EU from the northern part of Cyprus and to facilitate the disbursement of EU funds there. So the "embargo" would be lifted. Of course Denktash had rejected the offer.

After 5 years, when the negotiations had been completed and all the obstacles surpassed, you realized that we actually made it, and you wanted your share. You can have it, I don't think anyone objects to that. But you have to understand that hiding behind this "usurpation" story has cost you a lot. You guys started thinking that the RoC is perhaps the way forward in 2004. We did that in 1964.
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Postby Viewpoint » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:22 pm

was that before you kicked us out of government or after the akritas plan???
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Postby metecyp » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:27 pm

antonis wrote:You guys started thinking that the RoC is perhaps the way forward in 2004. We did that in 1964.

Do you really believe that it was 1964 for you guys? Who organized the coup then in 1974? I think you guys embraced the RoC after 1974 and especially after the prospects of joining to the EU. Papadopoulos rejected the RoC in 1959 and now he's one of the biggest supporters (in theory). The reason is the lack of TC representation in the RoC right now. Many GCs have hard time accepting the RoC as it is supposed to be, as we can see from this forum. The reason why it seems that GCs see it the way forward is because one of the essential elements of the RoC (TC representation) is never on the table.
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Postby antonis » Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:39 pm

I think you guys embraced the RoC after 1974 and especially after the prospects of joining to the EU.

Let's say more and more GCs believed in the RoC, starting from 1964. Now nobody believes in enosis.
The reason is the lack of TC representation in the RoC right now.

I'm not sure that this is entirely true. Myself, I can only imagine how it could work with TC participation as I've never seen it happen, and it would definitely need a lot of effort from both sides, something that was missing from either side before 1964. So it all boils down to trust and cooperativity... and mistrust is high in both communities but hopefully the levels are going down. But it's still a very fragile situation.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:21 pm

Metecyp wrote: For example, right after the borders opened, the RoC could have asked TCs to fill their positions in the RoC and maybe a commitee of TCs and GCs could have been formed in the RoC to work on a possible solution. Or a TC could have been sent to the EU to represent the Cyprus delegation.


The opening of the gates however was not expected, it happened suddenly, nobody beleived it would occur.Besides Turkey behaved very foxily.It opened the gates on Easter during our Holy when all the government was on holidays....So nothing could be done immediately. Furthermore it was not sure the borders would stay open. People were rushing to go, because they thought Denktash would close them again.

Regarding the return of the TCs to fill government positions unfortunately again the RoC has to think who these public servants are going to serve? Themselves only?
Then assuming it offers ALL possible opportunities for the TCs to return what will happen if in the end we will have lets say only 10-20K returning. Won’t they be replaced by settlers?

The way I see it is that there is no government who can take such risks because they may lead to catastrophy. Even Clerides cancelled the arrival of the S-300s because there was a 50% chance for a war.Serious Governments take steps only when they are near to 100% certain of the outcome.
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Postby metecyp » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:59 pm

MicAtCyp wrote:The way I see it is that there is no government who can take such risks because they may lead to catastrophy. Even Clerides cancelled the arrival of the S-300s because there was a 50% chance for a war.Serious Governments take steps only when they are near to 100% certain of the outcome.

So what you're saying is that GCs are entitled to keep the RoC to themselves (and claim that it represents TCs) as long as the Turkish army remains in the north? That's the feeling I'm getting from your post. So what makes the GC side any better than the Turkish army? Turkish army keeps the land as hostage, the GC side keeps the RoC as hostage. So the Cyprus problem is indeed not just a problem of occupation but more a problem of who is going to let go first.

What I meant by my previous post is that GCs could have used this "foxy" move of Turkey to show TCs that they really care about TCs and they want TCs back in the RoC. The RoC officials could have been more open to the process and used it to their advantage by making TCs feel like RoC citizens. But this wasn't done, instead all the efforts went into maintaining the status quo.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:00 pm

Look Metecyp to feel a citizen you must be a citizen, with all the obligations and all the rights this means.
The fact that the TCs are living under an illegal ocupational regime does not give them the right to claim self representation outside the RoC. Especially when this claim violates the rights of almost half the citizens of RoC.
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Postby MicAtCyp » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:44 pm

Metecyp wrote: What I meant by my previous post is that GCs could have used this "foxy" move of Turkey to show TCs that they really care about TCs and they want TCs back in the RoC. The RoC officials could have been more open to the process and used it to their advantage by making TCs feel like RoC citizens. But this wasn't done, instead all the efforts went into maintaining the status quo.


Metecyp, in case the TCs would not be replaced by settlers this could happen right away.
The RoC would invite all TCs to return in the Cyprus Republic, get back their homes, be employed in the Government, etc etc. Even if that would mean the the GCs would still not be able to return.
Unfortunately Metecyp our hands are tight.Turkeys game is designed so that for every move we make they can bring more disaster.
I will just remind you the answer Ertogan gave to a reporter a couple of years ago.The reporter told him that after the RoC joins the EU all the TCs will go back to the RoC. His answer was this:
The Greeks (he means GCs) can have as many Turks (he means TCs) they want. We can send them more if they like!!

It is not that we don't like the TCs returning. I myself would get in the streets together with my TC compatriots, and go outside of Papadopoulos house and stay there until he would bend (in case of course he would object), and shout my voice out, instead of losing my time in this forum.
What can we do? Adiexodo-Caresiz-dead end.
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Postby pantelis » Mon Mar 21, 2005 4:20 pm

Closing the gates, is still an option for Turkey.........
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Postby garbitsch » Tue Mar 22, 2005 1:42 am

Pantelis is a bit :roll: :eyecrazy:
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