Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

Erolz, the 1960 agreements were by no means bad for TCs. Since then we had the intercommunal fights and then the 30 years of occupation. If we can forgive the 30 years of occupation and we don't demand any further punishment for you, I am sure that you should be able to forgive the 10 years of inter-communal fight.

If you can not forgive the 10 years of inter-communal fights and you say "now we want something more than 1960 because of what happened in the 60s", why can't we say the same? Why do you expect us to accept to be punished even more, when in fact you commited at least an equal crime as we did? Maybe you are the ones that want us to capitulate?

So the 1960 agreements or a balanced "give and take" from the 1960 agreements would be the most fair.

Unfortunately most TCs deep inside them think: "GCs lost the war, they now have to give up something more". However this is not a friendly approach and it will only lead to another war in the future were TCs will loose and it will be their turn to give up things. The circle of blood will never end this way.

[Nickp]

Closing the boarder is such a bad idea it does not even worth contemplating about. We will be going backwards instead of forwards.

Think of it as one big dam, for years it stood strong, however, recently there's been cracks, and those cracks are getting bigger. Hopefully, it will fall down soon.

[antonis]

So here's a question to everyone.

Do you think that the 23rd of April 2003 could be the day in which Cyprus was reunited by its own people, just like it happened in Germany?

Was that a missed opportunity? If so, what went wrong - what did we do wrong - and the wall didn't fall, but just cracked?

And most importantly, would it have happened in a peaceful manner?

[pantelis]

The few TCs that use your services will go to Turkey like the majority.

So the TCs move to Turkey, where life is better!
What do the settlers do? Who allows them to keep coming?

[erolz]

Erolz, the 1960 agreements were by no means bad for TCs. Since then we had the intercommunal fights and then the 30 years of occupation. If we can forgive the 30 years of occupation and we don't demand any further punishment for you, I am sure that you should be able to forgive the 10 years of inter-communal fight.

It's not about forgiving. It's about the same problem that caused the trouble in 63 still not being resolved.

If you can not forgive the 10 years of inter-communal fights and you say "now we want something more than 1960 because of what happened in the 60s", why can't we say the same? Why do you expect us to accept to be punished even more, when in fact you commited at least an equal crime as we did? Maybe you are the ones that want us to capitulate?

No I am saying that an angreement that was acceptable to TC was made in 1960 and by 1963 it had failed and left TC in a disaterous situation. I do not expect you to be punished. I expect you to try and find an alternative agreement that TC can believe will not lead them inot the horrors they lived through from 63. It's not about punishement and who should be punished more. It's about if we can find an agreement that satisfies both sides or not. An agreement that just gives back everythig GC lost in 74 and gives them no restictions on their rights whilst at the same time denies the valid rights of the TC community to a status of equal partner community in Cyprus is not good enough (for TC).

So the 1960 agreements or a balanced "give and take" from the 1960 agreements would be the most fair.

The 1960 agreements already failed once and the situation today is very different than then so a 'balanced' give and take solution would be fine with me. However I am not sure what you consider you are willing to give? No right of equality of the two communites, no restictions on GC freedom to both reside and be politicaly represented in any part of Cyprus. What exactly is it that you are giving? Some (gifts?) on a small set of pre defined areas where you agree not to dominate us (re language, relgion) seems to be all you are 'giving'?

Unfortunately most TCs deep inside them think: "GCs lost the war, they now have to give up something more". However this is not a friendly approach and it will only lead to another war in the future were TCs will loose and it will be their turn to give up things. The circle of blood will never end this way.

There is a view that GC started a war - which they then lost and now they want to try and get back that which they lost by 'negotiation and pressure' because they failed to gain it by force. This is NOT my personal view but let's look at this a bit futher. Let's just suppose that the GC managed to first defeat the EOKA B and Greek terrorist and then repelled Turkey in 74. How do you think they would have reacted to TC then? Would they have said we have fought and won the war but to now force you to accept minority status in Cyprus would not be 'friendly' - so here have the rights you had in 60 that we tried to remove from you in 63 anyway. Somehoe I do not think this would have happened.

This is not about punishment. It is not about revenge. It is about a struggle by the TC people to resist being made no more than a (political) minority in their own homeland and have to live under GC/G domination. Their struggle has gone through many phases. It continues today. If and when GC are able to accept that we have this right to not be 'ruled' by people we consider 'other' (people with differnt langauge to us, different religion to us and historicaly with diametricaly opposed desires to us) then I believe that progress towards a fair and just solution for all can be found. We have suffered to not be made a minorty in our own homeland and be ruled by people that have shown great animosity towards us historicaly. We have died for this. That is the point. You must understand this. It is not abpout revenge or punishment - it's just the continuation of a struggle we have been engaged in since 1963. If we could have achieved this aim without harming any GC at all we would have done it that way. That was never an option. If we can achieve this today without having to ask for any compromise by GC we would do it.

[Piratis]

It's not about forgiving. It's about the same problem that caused the trouble in 63 still not being resolved.

So you think that if in 1960 agreements the TCs got even more, that the 1960 agreements would not fail? Even if TCs were given everything, and GCs were their slaves, this not only would not protect the TCs but it would bring the conflicts and the problems much faster.

Also, because the 1960 agreements didn't work, this doesn't mean the solution is to violate our human rights permanently and get even more than what you got in 1960. If it was like that we could make the counter-argument that if all TCs are send to Turkey (= violating their human rights) that no bicommunal conflicts and problems will ever happen again.
How would you find such argument? It is exactly the same way that we find your argument.

If and when GC are able to accept that we have this right to not be 'ruled' by people we consider 'other' (people with differnt langauge to us, different religion to us and historicaly with diametricaly opposed desires to us) then I believe that progress towards a fair and just solution for all can be found.

First of all I never asked from you to be ruled by others, but to rule ourselves all together like it happens in every other democratic country. Other examples of multi-communal, multi-language countries exist, and those people can coexist without the need to violate the human rights of each other.

Secondly, if you believe that you are 'others' in not just the other community of Cypriots, then there is no need to be discussing about unification, because it is obvious that what you seek is separation of people based on race. Why such thing should be discussed under the title of "unification"?

[brother]

The opening of the gates benefited all, we got to mix with each other and get rid of our demons and realise that the other side is inhabited by people like ourselves, this will only in the long run form the bases of total reconcilliation of our communities and maybe oneday become just CYPRIOTS.

[cannedmoose]

So here's a question to everyone.

Do you think that the 23rd of April 2003 could be the day in which Cyprus was reunited by its own people, just like it happened in Germany?

Was that a missed opportunity? If so, what went wrong - what did we do wrong - and the wall didn't fall, but just cracked?

And most importantly, would it have happened in a peaceful manner?

It's a good question Antonis, and one that hasn't really been asked on here much.

Personally, I think it was a missed opportunity but it also differed from the German model in a number of key aspects:

1. In Germany, the East German authorities completely lost control of the frontier in Berlin. The numbers of people swarming to the wall offered two options - either open the wall and let them flood through, or begin shooting, thankfully they chose the first option. In Cyprus (quite bizarrely when you contrast the national character stereotype with those of Germans!) was a more organised and planned affair. The Turkish Cypriot authorities were in control of the situation as it was their idea.

2. In contrast to the West German authorities, the GC government was lukewarm about the relaxation, largely I would surmise, because it was a TC initiative. In West Germany, East Germans were encouraged to cross the border and resettle (designed to rob the East German authorities of their brightest and best), rather than just visiting and going back. In comparison, although the same economic attractants existed for TCs, there was no active attempt by the GC authorities to encourage a mass migration.

3. Lastly, in the German example, the Soviet protector essentially wanted out by 1989. The Soviet Union under Gorbachev appreciated that if the Eastern Bloc countries decided to break away from their hold, there was little they could do to stop them, the USSR was bankrupt and a virtually spent force. In Turkey (the TRNC's 'protector' as it could be labelled), there isn't a similar parallel. Turkey doesn't want 'out'. It does appreciate that movement is required for its own future prospects within the EU, but there isn't a groundswell amongst the elite to rid itself of its vassals, as there was in the USSR. Thus, they are in a position and there is a willingness to continue to assist the TRNC financially and militarily.

Thus, I don't think there is a way that the Cypriot 'wall' could have come crashing down. I remember watching on TV as the Berlin Wall was overwhelmed in 1989 and seeing the rapturous way in which the people of East and West Germany met and interacted as they worked together to smash down sections of it. I was in Cyprus in April 2003 and don't recall there being that high level of euphoria. Although many thousands crossed on that first day, in my experience it was a happy, yet also cautious crossing.

The Cypriot wall is one that I think can only be demolished incrementally, I don't anticipate a 'peoples revolution' storming the wall working. If I remember rightly, a number of years ago, a large group of women broke into the Green Line and attempted to walk north in a march of peace. I recall that they were greeted with a TC riot squad who threatened violence unless they moved back. I'm sure if it had been in the opposite direction, it would have been greeted with similar suspicion by the GC authorities.

A popular movement can help break the wall, but only by breaking the barriers between the people first. Then the leaders in Cyprus will be forced to really listen.

[metecyp]

Was that a missed opportunity? If so, what went wrong - what did we do wrong - and the wall didn't fall, but just cracked?

Good question. I think it was a missed opportunity. I wasn't expecting an East-West Germany kind of unification overnight but I was hoping more changes rather than small cracks in the wall.

I think the RoC could have used the situation better. The RoC discouraged GCs to cross to the north in the first place. So political gains were put infront of people's mixing and interacting. The opening of borders, no doubt, was a good move and it could have been better if it received a similar response from the south. For example, right after the borders opened, the RoC could have asked TCs to fill their positions in the RoC and maybe a commitee of TCs and GCs could have been formed in the RoC to work on a possible solution. Or a TC could have been sent to the EU to represent the Cyprus delegation.

Many things could have been done but instead all the RoC did was to discourage people crossing and maintain the current status (the RoC with no TC participation) with minimal measures (health care, ID Cards).

[-mikkie2-]

Many things could have been done but instead all the RoC did was to discourage people crossing and maintain the current status (the RoC with no TC participation) with minimal measures (health care, ID Cards).

So in exchange for 'opening' a border where the GC's have to show their passport in order to go north we give you back all the benefits of statehood whilst you still occupy our stolen lands! What a fair exchange.