Cyprus-Forum.com

[Pyrpolizer]

Wasn't you the one who said "give the Turks everything they want kai vale kai kerasaki apo pano?" and put a cherry on top of the pie?"

[humanist]

VP

Finally someone with common sense and a bit of understanding towards TCs and their concerns, thank you Nikitas.

VP I totally agree with you. Nikitas is someone whose posts I respect with high regard. And his argument is the key to solving the Cypro. So lets all wok on that one to make a shift in our predicament.

[Piratis]

One observation- the Turkish Cypriots put forth a simple notion which makes their case seem valid on this point, namely that in the 60s while Cyprus was essentially under Greek Cypriot control they suffered persecution.

Everybody suffered during the 60s, not just TCs.

But where was our reward after suffering under the Ottomans for 3 centuries? Why we were not rewarded by benefiting on the loss of the human rights of TCs, and now the TCs have to benefit on the loss of our rights?

And where is our reward for being prosecuted and ethnically cleansed from our homeland for the last 33 years?

If there is somebody that could ask for rewards on the loss of the other due to what happened in the past those should be us, not the TCs.

Still we are not demanding such thing, because what we want is human rights and democracy for all, without using the past as an excuse to stop Cyprus from becoming a normal democratic country like all the rest.

[Viewpoint]

One observation- the Turkish Cypriots put forth a simple notion which makes their case seem valid on this point, namely that in the 60s while Cyprus was essentially under Greek Cypriot control they suffered persecution.

Everybody suffered during the 60s, not just TCs.

But where was our reward after suffering under the Ottomans for 3 centuries? Why we were not rewarded by benefiting on the loss of the human rights of TCs, and now the TCs have to benefit on the loss of our rights?

And where is our reward for being prosecuted and ethnically cleansed from our homeland for the last 33 years?

If there is somebody that could ask for rewards on the loss of the other due to what happened in the past those should be us, not the TCs.

Still we are not demanding such thing, because what we want is human rights and democracy for all, without using the past as an excuse to stop Cyprus from becoming a normal democratic country like all the rest.

You are comfortable knowing you represent 80% and are not at any risk by the 20%, so of course you want to use your advantage to turn Cyprus into a GC island where we will be foreigners in our own country. Just for second put yourself in our shoes and try and understand we have always been at a disadvantage pre 1974 we do not want to return to the same position and be left at the mercy of GCs and their racists and discriminative attitudes.

[Nikitas]

OK, I see that the challence, how to provide the sense of security one community wants without giving the other community a sense of injustice, remains.

Pyrpolizer- it was not I that said give the Turks everything they want and then a loukoumi on top, it was Prime Minister Karamanlis the elder. He said it when the Zurich agreement had been signed and he said it to Makarios. Imagine where we would be today if we had followed that advice. He had also said that the day the agreement was signed was the happiest day of his life. You can read between the lines and come to all kinds of conclusions.

For what it is worth my interpretation is that had we followed Karamanlis' advice Cyprus today would be a Greek island in all but formal name and ironcially the Turkish inhabitants might be fully satisfied with the situation. But that is another story.

Both "camps" used my question to restate their deeply entrenched positions without trying to undetrstand and empathize with the other side. Viewpoint for instance reasserts the fears of the Turkish Cypriots, but makes no effort to understand Greek Cypriot fears stemming from the presence of the Turkish army, settlers, exclusion from ancestral lands. I am willing to understand her PERCEIVED fear of me, but she is not for a minute willing to understand how her aspirations threaten me. The attitude is more than reciprocated by Greek Cypriot opinions here and the result is zero progress.

I did mention in my post that we must take into account the PERCEIVED fears of the other side. Regardless of the actual basis of a fear, if it exists it is real factor in the mix. Simple assurances are not enough for anyone, including me, when they tell mefor instance that the Turkish army is there to provide security etc.

Instead of reasserting our respective positions and rights how about stating our minimum requirements from a solution. See how that approach will lead us out of the impasse. I will start with some of my minimum requirements:

1- Not a single settler remains on the island

2- Not a single foreign soldier

3- Access to the whole of the island for all citizens

4- Guarantee of individual human rights as per UN charter, European Convention and EU aquis, for all citizens

5- Mutually declared exclusion of Partition and Union

6- A programme for the repatriation of Cypriots, guarantees to all Cypriots, and their descendants that they can return to settle in the island at any time

7- Conditions of safety and security for all communities of the island, as communities, since individual rights are already dealt with. Communities are not just Greeks and Turks but the others that we tend to forget in our headlong rush to assert "our rights"- Armenians, Maronites, Latins, Gypsies.

8- Defined programme for the removal of British Sovereign Base Areas in less than five years

These are SOME of my requirements. Some of you here will not agree, OK. But how do any of these requirements affect the need for safety for the "other community" and since I am Greek that means the Turkish community. And what requirements does someone like Viewpoint have that differ from the above? That is the sort of thing I want to see even if it is served without a loukoumi on top.

[Piratis]

OK, I see that the challence, how to provide the sense of security one community wants without giving the other community a sense of injustice, remains.

Your dilemma is a wrong one I am afraid.

The "security" is just an excuse that the TCs give. With 70 million Turks just a few miles away we should be the ones feeling insecure, and not the TCs if they lived in a democratic EU member state.

Often the TCs say "Our security is more important than your land" to excuse the occupation. But then, their mask drops, when I propose an 18%-82% partition which they do not accept. If what they cared about was their "security" and any other of the lame excuses that they give, and land was not as important, then they would accept partition not with 18%, but even with 10%.

What TCs want dear Nikitas is to officially Turkify an as big as possible part of Cyprus. They want a disproportionally big part to become officially turkish and be run by them, and the relationship that they would have with us to be the one that Spain and Latvia have within EU.

They would prefer to achieve this with a disguised partition, since a disguised partition like Annan plan would offer them additional benefits in comparison to a "standard" kind of partition:

1) EU Accession
2) Our money
3) Turkey would be able to control the whole island though the TC minority and their Settlers who would be able to block everything that Cyprus as a country could do (e.g. veto the Turkish accession in EU)

So don't bother with fake dilemmas. The situation is very clear: The invader grabbed a part of our country and currently we do not have the power to force them out and protect the sovereignty of our country. The only option that we have is to resist their attempts to legalize their illegalities, so when the right time comes in the future it will be easier for us to reclaim our lands since we will have legality and international law on our side.

[Nikitas]

Piratis,

Thank you for your response to my post. Your opinion pretty much refelcts an article written by Sener Levent yesterday in Politis. His view is that northern Cyprus is practically a Turkish province with all that this implies..

On the other hand there are Turkish Cypriots who do have a national conscience as Cypriots and do not want to be turned by force or compulsion into mainland Turks. The needs and requirements these people have is what interests me.

As for the partiotionist here, they presume that Turkey would in fact approve of a formal partition of the island, thereby relinquising any claims to the rest, which I do not believe for a minute.

[Piratis]

On the other hand there are Turkish Cypriots who do have a national conscience as Cypriots and do not want to be turned by force or compulsion into mainland Turks. The needs and requirements these people have is what interests me.

Yes, but they are the minority among TCs unfortunately. They are victims like us. What they can do is what we do, to resist the effort to officially partition Cyprus, and hope than in the future Turkey will not have the power to enforce this illegality.

[T_C]

No they are not in the minority!

The ones who want to join GCs in the RoC are a minority, YES....BUT, there are thousands upon thousands of TCs who want nothing to do with Turkey as much as they want nothing to do with the RoC. Call it excuses all you want but TCs don't want to jump in to live with their (past) aggressors straight away, nor do they want to relocate to their old homes which some have terrible memories of...It's like trying to get people to agree step back for 40 years to "re-live" the experience. Thanks but no thanks...

Are the GCs ever going to agree to Turkey remaining a guarantor? NO! Why?????? Perhaps because they're scared history might repeat itself???? Oh but when TCs have these fears it's "excuses"

[Nikitas]

OK Garagoz, you do not want to relive the past.But now, today, what are the minimum requirements you have and expect from a possible settlement? I put mine up in my post above. I still do not know yours.