Cyprus-Forum.com

[Nikitas]

I will define the access thing a little. Let us say that a lady in the north is a fine hairdresser and wants to open a business in the south, can she, with what permission and from whom? In the EU she would be able to start a business anywhere in the 25 member states, but can she start one in the "other federal state"? Simple matters like that are the things that perplex me.

[Viewpoint]

Ok,

I understand the separate states idea, but what access do people have to these states? The general description "separate states" can be interpreted in any number of ways.

And what about the other non Greek non Turkish communities what do they get? No one seems to give much of a damn about them, I guess if Armenia, Lebanon and Italy had the desire and the means to put their navies/armies around our area we might be more polite to these communities. They deserve some mention if only to maintain credibility in our postures of equality, fairness, rights etc.

Were they ever owners/rulers of Cyprus? I believe they threw their lot in with the Gcs in 1960 so they should ask the Gcs for their rights.

[Nikitas]

Viewpoint they were never given much of a choice- the 1960s constitution treated the smaller communities like garbage and so does the Annan plan. Your only care for them is to simply write them off? And the only rights you can give someone are those that come from them being owners or rulers? The Maronites have been on the island since the 8the century, the Armenians since the 10th century, the Latins probably as long. The Gypsies are a mystery because they have no written history. They are distinct communities and they do contribute to the island's economic and cultural life. Anyway, I guess there is no room in your scheme of things for them so the Greek side will have to look after their intersests.

[Viewpoint]

Viewpoint they were never given much of a choice- the 1960s constitution treated the smaller communities like garbage and so does the Annan plan. Your only care for them is to simply write them off? And the only rights you can give someone are those that come from them being owners or rulers? The Maronites have been on the island since the 8the century, the Armenians since the 10th century, the Latins probably as long. The Gypsies are a mystery because they have no written history. They are distinct communities and they do contribute to the island's economic and cultural life. Anyway, I guess there is no room in your scheme of things for them so the Greek side will have to look after their intersests.

They made a choice so they have to stick with it and thats to side with the GCs so Im sure they feel their best interests are protected by GCs

[Nikitas]

So the definitions of the federated state you have in mind seems to depend on exclusion of anyone not Turkish frm the corresponding federal state and the overall plan does not want any other minority with distinct rights. If you dont mind me saying so you are displaying a hard attitude towards people who may not want to define themselves as Greeks or may not want to be obligated to be part of a Greek federated state.

I would have no objection to the solution being a multi regional, multi communal federal state, with mini federal states given to the smaller communities and proportional terms in the revolving presidency that was on the cards. A two month term for our Gypsy president would be a welcome change and a world first for Cyprus. And I am not being funny or ironic about this.

[Kifeas]

Ok,

I understand the separate states idea, but what access do people have to these states? The general description "separate states" can be interpreted in any number of ways.

And what about the other non Greek non Turkish communities what do they get? No one seems to give much of a damn about them, I guess if Armenia, Lebanon and Italy had the desire and the means to put their navies/armies around our area we might be more polite to these communities. They deserve some mention if only to maintain credibility in our postures of equality, fairness, rights etc.

Were they ever owners/rulers of Cyprus? I believe they threw their lot in with the Gcs in 1960 so they should ask the Gcs for their rights.

Read the ridiculous and absurd type and level of arguments of this person, and tell me if you still find it reasonable to continue arguing with him /her!

VP, you just talk rubbish!!!

[Nikitas]

Kifeas,

At first I thought it was me, not being able to put ideas across clearly, but then I noticed the "broken record syndrome", the same fixed positions and "wooden" phraseology repeated over and over. It seems that no one has worked out in their minds, for their own benefit, the details of what they propose. And frankly I am shocked at the callous attitude towards anyone not Turkish and not strong enough to assert a claim, such as the smaller communities of the island.

In conclusion it seems that the details of a plan, a totally Turkish Cypriot inspired one, are not forthcoming because no one has worked out what it will mean on a day to day basis and how it will affect peoples' lives. I gather from my little experiment that there are some slogans repeated ad infinitum and that is where things stop.

I note that there has been no comment on the settlers, on the encouragement of diaspora Cypriots to return to the island, on the individual liberties and other details that any reasonable guy wanting to get to grips with a solution would want to know about.

The other thing I notice is the overplay of past hurts- violence- injustices, often from people who are obviously not old enough to have lived them. It is the cornerstone of every response. I was disturbed when Viewpoint mentioned burying alive, a totally uncalled for response to a genuine invitation to describe her/his vision of a settlement.

Pity, because I really wanted to know the other side's vision of how they see a solution working in practice. Well I live and learn

Nikitas

[humanist]

Nikitas, to some extent I can appreciate the fears the TC community is feeling. I will be coming to Cyprus later this year and I so much wanted to cross the green line to the occupied areas. However a whole lot of fear and mistrust has come up for me. Even from people that I have spoken too on thi forum who have met with other GC's and who offered to show me around the occupied areas. At this stage I am so fearful that I would disappear in the north and never to be seen by my family. Perhaps I have not deatl with the issues around the kiling of my uncle in 74 by te Turkish army and its invasion of Cyprus. To some level I can understand.

On the other level like you I am constantly surprised at the TC attitude towards excluding other groups form a state within Cyprus, wheteher minority or majority.

In terms of a vision, well I agree with you, there is no vision and thewre is no plan. I am beginning to believe each and ever day that this is a community that is at Turkeys' will and that Turkey's propaganda has been so effective that the community has locked itself in the enclave (occupied area) at their detriment.

However, I beieve that the Cypro will solve itself in ten years when all the youth now living in the north but integrating in the south will seek to benefit from a european Cyprus by demanding not only their rights within the RoC but also their ancestral properties in the south. When this breed of TCypriots begin to do so the international arena will question Turkey's motives of having a strong army presence in Cyprus with no one to protect.

The recent action by the US to make mention of the millions of crossings from the occupied areas to the RoC since the opening of the crossings, is significant. We now have TC's working in the south, their perception of GC's will soon change, the your attending schools univerity etc will also change their perceptions and coupled with the knowledge that if they claim their property in Paphos they will be significanlty better off the move willl naturally happen.

I am confident that there will be no solution of the Cypro in the next few years but it will naturally occur in a decade or so. Perhaps our politicians know this and perhaps that is why they are stalling, however, the nly side stalling now is that of the TC leadership. It is difficult to justify my argument as I do not have statistics on the moves of TC's within Cyprus, however some good statistics will give an idea of the trends in this area.

[Nikitas]

Humanist,

I was in Cyprus last month, the figures regarding TCs employed in the south is 12000, they cross daily to work and then go back in the evening.

Moving around the south you see quite a few cars bearing TC number plates, which are different from the RoC plates and therefore recognisable. You also see Turkish Cypriots sitting in cafes and restaurants in the south apparently at ease and not at all fearful.

I did not go to the north. As a former resident of Famagusta and frequent visitor of the Karpasia district, and having listened to descriptions I decided not to go and risk ruining my memories of the place. In any case Famagusta is totally off limits. Our ancestral home is in the Morphou district but it has been demolished by the people who took over neighboring houses belonging to other relatives. Asked why they demolished houses the people there said it was to prevent mainland settlers coming in and living next to them! The people living in the houses are from a nearby village in the free area and very nice. They come visit my cousins frequently and their attitude seems to bear out what you say- in time the division will become increasingly irrelevant and the Turkish army will have nothing to protect. Then all of us together will have to face the big problem of what to do with two hundred thousand settlers!

Humanist, I don'tknow how long you have been away from Cyprus. I kept away for 25 years, from 1980 till 2005 and was surprised at the changes. Cyprus is more like Austria now than like Greece. When you go I would like to see what your impressions are.

[humanist]

We left in October 1981, I have been back several times, the last time April 2000 for a fleeting two weeks. This time I will stay a month. The changes were more obvious to me in 2000. However have not been back since the openning of the divide.

I was referring ot other statistics Nikitas, such as TC children in schools in the free areas, number of TC people living in RoC, employment figures in government positions etc.

I suspect that according to what you say, that perhaps for everuyones' sake Talat will stall, in order to naturally go back to the 1960's constitution and way of life. Otherwise we may end up with a compromise not too disimilar to the AP. I think it is better that Talat continue his stalling games. I trully believe that TC's will be much better off within the RoC than the foresaken state they're in.

The RoC can probably spped the process of natural solution as I have spoken above, by re-housing refugees occupying TC owned property, in order to allow people to return to their homes. A little more legislation though would be necessary to make crime against ethnicity and linguistics more punishable this will ensure that violence against TC population is minimised.