Cyprus-Forum.com

[magikthrill]

erolz,

Although I agree with many of the points you made in your posts I don't think that the EU could find much to say against Turkey if the CYprus problem was solved. If this was the situation then there would be other excuses that would have been mentiond before they decided to begin accession talks.

Although there are many countries (mostly their citizens) that would rather not have Turkey in the EU (me for one) the fact is that in the long run the EU could benefit economically. Of course this would lead to a US type of economy where the rich become richer and the poor become poorer since this is what is caused by cheap labor. However, countries like the UK which are already rich won't mind to this.

[erolz]

erolz,

Although I agree with many of the points you made in your posts I don't think that the EU could find much to say against Turkey if the CYprus problem was solved. If this was the situation then there would be other excuses that would have been mentiond before they decided to begin accession talks.

There are many 'reasons' that those that do not want Turkey in the EU give - far beyond Cyprus. Not geographically in Europe. Not mentally in Europe. Too big. Too poor. Too different. Too Islamic. Bad human rights record. The idea that if there was no Cyprus problem (or even no Cyprus) Turkey's accession to the EU would be assured and plain sailing is not one that I think is realistic. Turkey first applied to the EU way before 74. There were plently of reasons then to not even give it a date to start the process.

While what you say above does make sense, somehow I cannot see Turkey leaving from the occupied part of Cyprus before they secure their EU membership (if ever).

I do not disagree with this sentiment. For better or worse the fate of Cyprus and Turkish EU entry and inextriably bound togeather. What I was challenging was the idea that Cyprus is a 'trump card' as far as gaining EU entry. In my Humble opinion it is not only not a trump card but it is a low card in a weak suit (ie a positive hinderance rather than a positive help to EU entry).

[insan]

While what you say above does make sense, somehow I cannot see Turkey leaving from the occupied part of Cyprus before they secure their EU membership (if ever).

So, doesn't that mean Turkey has to exert effort as much as she is capable in order to help solving the Cyprus problem and keep a smal portion of her troops in Cyprus as long as it is neccessary?

Either Turkey becomes an EU member or not, she has to exert effort to help resolving Cyprus problem as soon as possible and as secure as to all concerned parties.

The problem here is that,there's still no common ground between Turkish and Hellene side concerning security issues.

The other problem which Hellene and Turkish side still have no common ground is "political equality" issue.

Makarios' successor Papadopoulos is still manoeuvreing to degrade TCs into minority status and nullify treaty of guarantee and alliance.

Why? It is obviously seen.

[brother]

Maybe we should have a law that says people who were involved in EOKA or TMT cannot be allowed a political career, then at least the public on both sides would have less reason not to trust them, as we are all sure that trust is a big factor here.

[MicAtCyp]

The gates are NOT open!

[magikthrill]

There are many 'reasons' that those that do not want Turkey in the EU give - far beyond Cyprus. Not geographically in Europe. Not mentally in Europe. Too big. Too poor. Too different. Too Islamic. Bad human rights record. The idea that if there was no Cyprus problem (or even no Cyprus) Turkey's accession to the EU would be assured and plain sailing is not one that I think is realistic. Turkey first applied to the EU way before 74. There were plently of reasons then to not even give it a date to start the process.

erolz, you are right on this. in the 80s and eaarly 90s the EU used Greece as its "shield" against Turkey's membership. I remember when former Greek PM Papandreou stated thta if everyone wanted Turkey to enter the EU then he would not object, which was when Germany stated its objection.

Now however that Greece enjoyes bending over to Turkey Cyprus will be used as their shield, since they are probably not expecting a solution any time soon.A conspiracy theorist mgith even say one of the reasons why Cyprus was allowed into the EU (even though I think it vioaltes the 1960 constitution, right?) was to obsturct TUrkey's entrance. Who knows.

[MicAtCyp]

That they did not want to remove from the TC community rights they previous agreed to accept?

"Agreed to accept" under blackmail of course, and without the consent of the people.

Yes Turkey has resons other than altruism and concern for TC in it's interests in Cyprus.

Agree. Like for example getting a card she thought it could exchange for the Greek oil reserves in the Aegean. If the real purpose of Turkey were to "save" the Tcs she would do so in 1963-64 when they really suffered rather than in 1974 when the situation with the exception of a one week coup was almost normal.The coup gave the chance to re-grap the lost opportunity of the past.

The question is: who is going to save the TCs from their savors today??

Do you really think that those in the EU that do not want Turkey in the EU give a toss about Cyprus?

No, but they can use it as an excuse, like you very correctly pointed out later in your message.

Cyprus is not a trump card

The fact is it is a trump card exchangeable as a total or partially. Did you notice how just a small part of it was cashed in the Anan Plan? A tailored arbitration to suit Turkey 100%, on exchange of sea shell rights to the British while still keeping the trump card available for another 19 years!

The only one who can take points out of this card is Cyprus itself.So I beleive before long Turkey has to exchange all the points of the card in her effort to clear her road to Europe.
In this respect the Cyprus problem will not be solved in one year, will not be solved in 15 years, it will be solved gradually and finalised somewhere in the middle. What makes me happy is that we will see the results year after year. It will be fascinating!!!

And by the way Turkey will never become a full member.It will have a special relation i.e everything except getting the political power out of the big boys. But even for that she will have to spend her card.

Papadopoulos is still manoeuvreing to degrade TCs into minority status and nullify treaty of guarantee and alliance.

Insan the TCs are 18%. Do you consider 18% rights "minority rights"?

[pantelis]

q

[Agios Amvrosios]

I agree with MT:

erolz, you are right on this. in the 80s and eaarly 90s the EU used Greece as its "shield" against Turkey's membership. I remember when former Greek PM Papandreou stated thta if everyone wanted Turkey to enter the EU then he would not object, which was when Germany stated its objection.

Now however that Greece enjoyes bending over to Turkey Cyprus will be used as their shield, since they are probably not expecting a solution any time soon.A conspiracy theorist mgith even say one of the reasons why Cyprus was allowed into the EU (even though I think it vioaltes the 1960 constitution, right?) was to obsturct TUrkey's entrance. Who knows.[/

quote

I mean the Austrians were banking on T-Pap exercising Cyprus' veto.

I am all for Turkey joining the EU. I think it will bring peace, prosperity and stability in the area but as long as the refugees are allowed to return to the homes. I consider the proposed 15 year restriction on Turkish free movement in the EU as advocated by France, Germany and the UK are advocating is racist and unfair. The Big EU countries want to use Turkey.

[erolz]

"Agreed to accept" under blackmail of course, and without the consent of the people.

Under pressure no doubt but 'blackmail' ? Everyone wanted Makarios to sign the 60's agreements - including Greece. As to the consent of the people - firstly in legal terms that consent was not required. Makarios had the legal right to agree it on behalf of the GC people as their representative. In 'moral' terms as the akritas plan itself states.

It is significant argument that the solution achieved has not been ratified by the people, because our leadership, acting wisely, avoided calling the people to ratify it by a plebiscite, which the people, in the 1959 spirit, would have done if called upon.

Just read the Akritas plan. The echos of your words today to its words then are sinister and scary imo.

If the real purpose of Turkey were to "save" the Tcs she would do so in 1963-64 when they really suffered

She tried then and did intervene with jets briefly but was blocked by USA and others and on the understanding and hope that the UN would be able to protect the TC community and their rights. The UN failed and again in 67 Turkey came close to intervention and again was blocked by USA and others.

rather than in 1974 when the situation with the exception of a one week coup was almost normal.The coup gave the chance to re-grap the lost opportunity of the past.

Do you realise how that sounds? With the exceptioon of a coup everything was 'normal'! Sure ignoring a coup carried out and led by dangerous and violent men with an infamous hatred for TC and desire for a 'final soultion' to them everything was 'normal'. No TC in government. A constituion breached in so many areas as to be a joke. Yep everything 'normal' then.

The fact is it is a trump card exchangeable as a total or partially.

This is just madness. Do you really believe that if there was no Cyprus problem or if Turkey had done nothing in 74 that they would not have got the start date for accession talks? That it was only because they agreed to extended the trade protocol to include the RoC that they got the agreement for start of accession process and that if there was no 'Cyprus trump card' they would not. Madness. Sheer madness.

The only one who can take points out of this card is Cyprus itself.So I beleive before long Turkey has to exchange all the points of the card in her effort to clear her road to Europe.

And here we see the real use of Cyprus problem as a 'trump card'. It is the 'trump card' for GC that want to force TC into a submission they could not achieve through negotiation and agreement (in 60) or through force and terror (63-74). It is a 'trump card' not for Turkish EU entry but the trump card for those GC that want to this. As you say to be used in whole or in part, slice by slice to gain concessions from Turkey over their protection of TC. That is why TP does not want a solution now. He wants to play his Cyprus Trump card - not lose it. Why find a fair and compromise solution today when you have the trump card to get a solution that requiure no compromise or limit on your desires?

Certainly the Cyprus problem is being used as a Trump Card. But not by Turkey to gain EU entry but by GC/TP to gain maximal demands for Cyprus - the same demands that they could not get in 06 or in 63-74.

In this respect the Cyprus problem will not be solved in one year, will not be solved in 15 years, it will be solved gradually and finalised somewhere in the middle. What makes me happy is that we will see the results year after year. It will be fascinating!!!

As long as TP and GC and people like yourself believe that you can blackmail Turkey and the EU and the rest of the world in order to get your maximal demands then the prospects for the futre are bleak imo.

Insan the TCs are 18%. Do you consider 18% rights "minority rights"?

MicAtCyp do you believe that a 40 stone 6 foot person has the same rights as a 6 stone 4.5 foot person? If you do then why can you not accept that a smaller community has the same rights as a larger one?