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So What Happenned at The Meeting?

How can we solve it? (keep it civilized)

Postby Kifeas » Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:53 pm

Viewpoint wrote:Open ended negotiations can go on forever and in our case will as we have previously experienced. I support Talat for asking for time frames as this will make sure the process produces results and applys pressure on both sides to move forward rather than continue with delaying tactics. You are all falling into the same trap, the only time anything was produced was during the AP process, where both sides worked hard for the result they wanted whether or not you support the end product.


What do you mean by "open ended" negotiations, and who supports such "open ended" negotiations?

The "8th of July" agreement calls for the formation of two types of technical committees, those that will be dealing with day to day issues (i.e. confidence building measures so to say,) and those that will deal with the substantial issues pertaining to the solution of the Cyprus issue. When the technical committees will reach to a minimum consensus on the facts and the parameters based on which an issue will be resolved, then the two leaders will meet and try to finalise an agreement (on the issue at stake!) This is precisely what Papadopoulos supports, and to this end, since last year, he submitted in terms of headlines the various issues (parameters) that in his view need to be discussed by the various committees.

Can you tell me what Mr. Talat supports; and since as you claim Mr. Talat is in a hurry and for this reason he also calls for timeframes, what has he done during the last 14 moths that have been wasted, towards the implementation of the "8th of July" agreement that he signed?
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:28 pm

Nothing!!
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Postby Viewpoint » Fri Sep 07, 2007 6:40 pm

Kifeas wrote:
Viewpoint wrote:Open ended negotiations can go on forever and in our case will as we have previously experienced. I support Talat for asking for time frames as this will make sure the process produces results and applys pressure on both sides to move forward rather than continue with delaying tactics. You are all falling into the same trap, the only time anything was produced was during the AP process, where both sides worked hard for the result they wanted whether or not you support the end product.


What do you mean by "open ended" negotiations, and who supports such "open ended" negotiations?

The "8th of July" agreement calls for the formation of two types of technical committees, those that will be dealing with day to day issues (i.e. confidence building measures so to say,) and those that will deal with the substantial issues pertaining to the solution of the Cyprus issue. When the technical committees will reach to a minimum consensus on the facts and the parameters based on which an issue will be resolved, then the two leaders will meet and try to finalise an agreement (on the issue at stake!) This is precisely what Papadopoulos supports, and to this end, since last year, he submitted in terms of headlines the various issues (parameters) that in his view need to be discussed by the various committees.

Can you tell me what Mr. Talat supports; and since as you claim Mr. Talat is in a hurry and for this reason he also calls for timeframes, what has he done during the last 14 moths that have been wasted, towards the implementation of the "8th of July" agreement that he signed?


While your minuture leader has been "carefully preparing the ground" for the last 14 months Talats hand has been suspended awaiting direct meetings with Papadop to agree time frames for the 8th of July Agreement to ensure progress is made and that negotiations of these committes do not go on forever...isnt this more logical or do you support your leaders view that as you claim left to their known time wasting tactics both sides will produce solutions and agree issues put before them? Sorry but your approach will ensure no end product and with our known track record there will be lots of finger pointing and nothing else.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:17 pm

It's not a matter of a time table. It is a matter of first making progress. How can anyone set a logical time limit when he has absolutely no idea how much time he or the other side needs?

So far Talat just refused to proceed. Why doesn't he start the procedure??

Remember the UN should be in a position to either say a)if any side is applying delaying practices or b)whether the procedure itself is time wasting and should change.
But without having the procedure started the UN can do nothing.

It is more than obvious that Talat does not like the procedure itself because he is afraid it will lead to a solution that he doesn't want.
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Postby Kikapu » Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:59 am

Setting a time limit is a good idea, only when both parties are interested in solving problems. Setting a time limit is a bad idea, if one or both the parties do not want to solve any problems, in which they can say, look, we put the effort in, in the prescribed time limit and nothing has come about, so it's time to cut our loses and say goodbye to each other. There can be so many tactics used by either side to derail anything and everything, until they run out the clock.

So the question is, who would want to run out the clock and why.
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Postby BirKibrisli » Sun Sep 09, 2007 2:01 pm

I tend to agree that the whole shebang was just show. I have suspected for some time that Talat wants to give Papadopoulos a hand in his election. He does not want to risk losing the new found MR NO. of Cypriot politics..I am assuming of course that meeting with Talat would actually win votes for Tassos,but I am prepared to be corrected on that...The other reason for the meeting had to do with Turkey's march towards becoming a member of the EU.Turkey has to keep showing the world that she and the TCs want a quick solution to the problem,but surprise! surprise! the GCs are always dragging their feet...What a shame,nothing can be done... :twisted:
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Postby Viewpoint » Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:44 pm

Birkibrisli wrote:I tend to agree that the whole shebang was just show. I have suspected for some time that Talat wants to give Papadopoulos a hand in his election. He does not want to risk losing the new found MR NO. of Cypriot politics..I am assuming of course that meeting with Talat would actually win votes for Tassos,but I am prepared to be corrected on that...The other reason for the meeting had to do with Turkey's march towards becoming a member of the EU.Turkey has to keep showing the world that she and the TCs want a quick solution to the problem,but surprise! surprise! the GCs are always dragging their feet...What a shame,nothing can be done... :twisted:


Then why dont the GCs do something radical for a change and show the world they really want a solution and that everything they do is not just for front as they already have 905 of what they want why risk that for a few stupid refugees if you can pull the wool over their eyes.
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Postby Pyrpolizer » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:03 pm

Here's the new VP agenda

a)GCs have 90% of what they want :shock: :shock:
b)They have a few refugees :shock: :shock:
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Postby T_C » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:24 pm

NEVER LET the facts get in the way of some good political spin seemed to be the motto adopted after Wednesday’s three-hour meeting between President Tassos Papadopoulos and Turkish Cypriot leader Mehmet Ali Talat

The blame game was in full swing from the minute both leaders returned to their respective sides after a failed meeting that may very well have been the kiss of death for the July 8, 2006 process.

Then again the agreement, brokered by UN envoy Ibrahim Gambari, never really came to life because 14 months and 50 meetings later, senior aides from the two sides had failed to even decide what the proposed committees would discuss.

Papadopoulos took the first swipe on Wednesday night by criticising Talat because he asked for time limits on the discussions so they could be speeded up, a demand that constitutes the polar opposite of what the Greek Cypriot side wants.

It believes setting time limits could lead to not preparing the ground properly for comprehensive negotiations.

Talat counter-accused Papadopoulos of not wanting a solution, because no time limits meant the process could go on indefinitely.

Both have a point. The Annan plan in its last stages was a rush job to coincide with EU membership, so timeframes can backfire. But Turkish Cypriot fears that the process could be used to make the talks go on forever are not unfounded either.

Papadopoulos however went a step further, accusing Talat of deviating from the July 8 agreement while he himself wished to stick “to the letter” of the agreement. He even had the opposition parties convinced that Wednesday’s failure was Talat’s fault.

Of course the Turkish Cypriot side said the opposite, arguing that the current situation is proof that the Greek Cypriot policy of no timetables has already failed because not even the terms of reference for the committees was agreed in the space of 14 months.

To separate the spin from the truth it is necessary to revisit the July 8 agreement and the Gambari letter of November 2006 because people have short memories and most facts presented by politicians tend to consist of wheat grains in a sea of chaff.
Firstly, under the July 8 deal, both leaders agreed not to engage in the “blame game”.
Those words were used specifically.

As one EU diplomat put it: “The very people who are saying they want the implementation of the agreement to the letter are the ones going hammer and tongs at the blame game.”
Secondly, there are several time limits specified in the agreement. One relates to the
submission of topics for the proposed committees by July 31, 2006. This was adhered to… barely.

The agreement also calls for a “stocktaking meeting” between the two leaders by March 2007. This never happened.

Thirdly – and the real kicker – is that Gambari’s letter to the two leaders four months later said the second phase would commence with the leaders meeting where they “may also wish to establish an indicative timeframe within which it would proceed”.
They could then meet every four weeks, he said.
So although timeframes are not specifically mandatory under the Gambari process, they are not excluded either.
The situation might have been better served for the President to simply say he and Talat disagreed about the issue of time limits rather than to accuse the Turkish Cypriot leader of the far more serious charge of deviating from the agreement when it clearly allows the setting of time tables by mutual consent.
Papadopoulos also scored another point off Talat Thursday, “revealing” that the Turkish Cypriot leader had refused an invite to meet again tomorrow. But a fly on the wall at Wednesday’s meeting said it didn't transpire quite like that.
“When Talat realised they were at a dead end and understood that a new meeting was for internal consumption on the Greek Cypriot side, he asked what would be the point of them coming together again after only four days and if they envisaged anything other than other than the possibility of creating a worse situation,” said the source.
Ironically it was Papadopoulos who spent the past year avoiding meetings with Talat, saying there was nothing to discuss. It was only when coalition partner AKEL quit the government in July this year that he issued the invitation to Talat to meet, even though nothing had yet been accomplished under the Gambari agreement.
The outcome of Wednesday’s meeting was that the leaders merely agreed to stay in touch via the UN. No meeting between their two aides has been fixed and by all accounts there are no plans for them to resume their attempts to form any committees.
Sources close to Talat, when asked whose ball the court was in, said: “The ball is not in anyone’s court – it’s out of the court”. The source added: “I can’t say it [the agreement] is dead but I can’t say it’s alive.”
Whether the July 8 agreement will now join the Annan plan “on the autopsy table” to use a quote from the former government spokesman, will likely depend on the outcome of the presidential elections in February.
This is the general feeling on both sides and among the international community, some of whom feel the July 8 agreement has lost all credibility.
Of course with the elections coming, it cannot be ruled out that Papadopoulos will issue another invite to Talat before February, and the Turkish Cypriot leader says he is willing to respond positively to such a meeting.
The whole fiasco has in fact left the international community very disappointed with diplomats blaming both sides for the deadlock. They say that over the past year each side has avoided moving forward for different reasons such as the elections in Turkey, and now the upcoming presidential elections on the Greek Cypriot side.
“We are extremely fed up,” said the EU diplomat. “We thought maybe we would get a little more than we did. After 14 months, frankly it’s pathetic and sends an extremely negative signal.”
“We would like to see more honesty in the debate because it's clear that people are saying one thing and meaning another. Meetings are all well and good but if they don't deliver any progress they can be worse than a waste of time.”


http://www.cyprus-mail.com/news/
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Postby CopperLine » Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:35 pm

It's not a matter of a time table. It is a matter of first making progress. How can anyone set a logical time limit when he has absolutely no idea how much time he or the other side needs?


I don't pretend to know what Pap or Tat's agenda are, but there are many variations of negotiations with and without timetables. Some international negotiations, by virtue of being open-ended and not constrained by any timetable can mean that negotiators feel able to discuss more freely, to bring into play items which would otherwise be left off and so on. Paradoxically perhaps open ended negotiations can some times speed things up, even technically difficult matters. However the converse has also been the case : tight deadlines may serve to focus the mind where some result, even if partial and incomplete by a certain date is regarded as better than nothing.

I'm not convinced that you can read off some definite agenda or some underhand trick just from who favours a fixed timetable or not. The same applies, I think, to arguments about having technical committees : sometimes a fruitful idea, sometimes an immobilising anchor.

My impression is that the reason that neither a timetabled approach nor a technical approach has resulted in any progress is largely because neither side has any fear of sanction if they don't meet a target. After all, albeit for different reasons and with different calculations in mind, both sides can live still longer with the status quo. Neither side has an imperative to concede anything to the other side, and both sides have good reasons to offer nothing. Meanwhile the refusniks on both sides also have more time to dig in yet deeper. A great shame.
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