Cyprus-Forum.com

[observer]

Kifeas
I assume that poor “observer” doesn’t realize that there are no two zones in Cyprus, in a formal, official and recognized sense, but only an area of Cyprus that is under illegal Turkish occupation!

Dictionary definitions:
Area: A particular part of a country, town, etc.
Zone: An area that is different from other areas around it in some way.

"...an area of Cyprus that is under illegal Turkish occupation!". That would seem to meet the dictionary definition of a zone.[/b]

[pantheman]

Ditch the idea of BBF

No chance, BBF and political equality are supported by the UN.

What is also supported by the UN is that the Turkish troops leave cyprus and that Cyprus is returned to the legitimate RoC government.

But i guess you only like to pick and choose the bits you want.

Hence the stalemate, you want it all your way or no way, typical.

[observer]

Kifeas

If on the other hand, you only mean that in each zone it is anticipated that the majority of Cypriot permanent residents will be from each community respectively, and consequently the local (state) apparatus and government of the north will be (by virtue of majority) under a TC community political domination and democratic control (not ethnic ownership as such,) and always to the extent that the agreed local (state level) competencies will allow it, then we are ready to discuss it!

I agree, a good definition. But I revert to my earlier point, that it is impossible to achieve this (two zones with coherent boundaries, each dominated politically by a different community) while still demanding that each and every GC refugee has his property returned. The demographics pre 63/74 just won’t allow it.

No politics, just common sense.

[humanist]

pantheman

What is also supported by the UN is that the Turkish troops leave cyprus and that Cyprus is returned to the legitimate RoC government.

But i guess you only like to pick and choose the bits you want.

Hence the stalemate, you want it all your way or no way, typical.

Pantheman, I doubt that the UN give a shit about Cyprus and the Turkish troops. If they did they would have imposed an economic embargoe on Turkey not the TC community.

[repulsewarrior]

please read...

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=13686&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

Communal is politcs, Zonal is geography

[Marz]

HUMANIST tell me if they make the buffer Zone into a park, what happens to all the villages inside it, especially my fathers village which he still hasnt been allowed to go and see????????????????????????

[fwnh]

A federation , also known as a federal state, is a type of sovereign state characterized by a union of partially self-governing states or regions united by a central (federal) government. In a federation, the agonizing of self-governing status of the component states is typically constitutionally entrenched and may not be altered by a unilateral decision of the central government.

Federations include but are not limited to... USA Canada Brazil India Pakistan Australia Germany

[repulsewarrior]

observer wrote: Bizonal - Two Zones. We've got that.
Kifeas wrote: Do we??? Can you show us the map of the two zones then?

I assume that this is to make a point rather than a genuine question. I have two maps of Cyprus; one labels the North of the Island “Inaccessable due to Turkish Occupation”; the other one labels the North of the Island “Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus”. Not saying how things should be, just saying how things are. Two Zones.


Piratis wrote: Maybe Observer means that it is easy to understand what "bi-zonal" means. Obviously we never agreed on where and how big each zone will be. What should be taken for granted is that the towns, villages and areas that have a legal GC majority should be part of the zone where GCs are the majority.

Basically I am in agreement with Piratis.


Phoenix wrote: Piratis, what happens if a zone is created to cover an area with a clear GC majority, but there remain the odd village or town which is predominantly GC, but lies outside the zone?

Here we come to the central problem. It is a big contradiction for GC politicians to say that they agree with a bi-zonal, bi-communal federation, which means that each community has its own zone, it’s own coherent area, and then at the same time demand that every GC has his property returned, which means, given the mixture of populations prior to 74 (or 63 if you prefer) that you can not have two coherent, distinct zones.

In order for Cyprus to be bi-zonal some GCs are going to have to give up thoughts of having their land returned (as are some TCs, although the majority of TCs have now accepted this as can be seen by the very small number who have chosen to live in the current GC zone). Is there a GC politician brave enough to point this out, and are the GCs willing to accept it? Unless they are, BBF isn't going anywhere.

...here is the crux, "coherant" areas; the need for people to be served so that their governance improves their daily lives.

a zone is geographic, politcally it is made to remain a component of a bigger whole. nothing prevents us from defining this (bizonal) with many parts, rather than with two parts. and this diversity best serves the interests of all Cypriots as Persons. (but you must really be willing to think about it, it is the real, the science with which there is the courage to overcome our denial and fear), enclaves allow the existence of two (or more) National Assemblies territorially, geographically made of many components, so that we can live as a "Turk" or as a "Greek" island wide, while there will be one Presidant who Represents us as Individuals on Principals that are Universal (our Federal Government), while Governors will provide the infrastructure to their electors, first as a Majority within their Jurisdictions, and under a Sovereign State an equal amongst Nations, as People of Good Will respecting the needs of Minorities with Acts.

...am i being clear, Mr. K will you respond?

as for Bicommunal, i will say it again, although it has something to do with different Identities and their distinctions, it has more to do with Truths that go beyond our own Community; it is a "Person/Individual" thingy, it is not a "Greek/ Turkish" thingy. Cypriots, as this island's dwellers, need to defend their Sovereignty for its Stewardship. That is why a strong State within the Community of Europe is so important. more importantly as Persons, we have to have the means to sustain the distinctiveness of our own Communities, within National Assemblies. and this, if we are Cypriots first, should have no boundries (as in a line to keep us divided). a sense for our betterment as Humans comes with enclaves spotting the whole island. while the "Green Line" can remain, it will have no soldiers to defend it as a border, we will be even closer to the land, with many frontiers where others may take pleasure in our pleasing ourselves.

...Bicommunal: a State to defend our Individual Rights, and National Assemblies to sustain our Identities as Persons; two levels of government, but governance by more than two.

...Bizonal: a whole called Cyprus; also divided as (many) components, the constituencies formed being politically equal.

we owe it to ourselves to demonstrate a willingness to recognise the displaceds' Right of Return; so too the victims of an Ignorance which must be overcome. each community seeks "a zone" but there is no good reason to simply tear the island in two. Moreso, the issue of settlers on Humanitarian grounds requires some to remain, even under the most strict interpretations of Custom. New thoughts, under these circumstances need to be considered. Cypriots, can (and may) choose to end the Problem in a manner that can be emulated because it is meaningful, futuristic and forward thinking.

Cheers!

[repulsewarrior]

a Federal government, and two or many National Assemblies; this is Bicommunal.

a State that is Sovereign in representing the island as a single territory, while its parts comprise geographic components; this is Bizonal.

[humanist]

Bicommunal - Two Communities. We've got that.

I disagree ... what we got is two communities that have welcomed multiculturalism both having large populations of other nationalities and yet cannot let their pasts go and Unite their country. The whole thing sux