Cyprus-Forum.com

[insan]

Insan,

You know what I hate most? Tags. "Majority rule" is a tag. So is "genuine partnership based upon political equality". In the past we had other types of tags. "Confederation", "sovereignty" etc. They ring equally bad in your brain as they do in mine. Only through the final text of an agreed solution you will be able to judge whether the "majority rules".

Sorry, Antonis. I didn't want to annoy you by using those tags. Those terms which I tagged have different meanings peculiar to Cyprus since British Rule and under the current circumstances. "Political equality" does not connote an absolute political equality of two communities, seperately but rather combined. On the other hand "majority rule" does not connote majority of TC community is also included but rather it connotes GS majority.

First of all Tassos is not alone, the 76% of the GC community said NO to the Annan plan. Noone knows what this NO means, and of course everyone is interpreting it any way he wants. That's a situation we have to live with until the GC politicians decide what changes the Annan plan needs before the GC community can say YES. In the meantime, Tassos will be there for another 3 years.

I know.. I know, antonis. I'm well aware of that. I know that there were 4 major groups among those who said no. There were divergence of opinion between Akelites' no and the split part of Desi's no, Diko's no etc... I know the essentials of this issue.

Perfect. We're already in the vicious cycle mode. Any ideas how to exit? And as for the troops, I was talking about an eventual demilitarization... and have in mind that for any solution proposal to work, we have to believe in it and make it work. The question is how to build trust between the two communities... we need more of that.

I agree with you. I put my suggestions forward regarding these issues @

http://www.cyprus-forum.com/viewtopic.php?t=1310


So, let's continue discussing under that topic.

[erolz]

Creating a Cypriot identity is definitely not easy, but shouldn't that be our eventual goal?

Of course it should be the eventual goal but TODAY we are two seperate communites - more seperate physicaly and emotionaly than we have ever been before. If we want to reach this goal then FIRST we have to find a way to live togeather as distinct communites - because we are currently distinct communites.

Does it help to name more than half of our streets "Makarios avenue"? Or not doing so means that we are forgetting our history? Do we still build monuments that remind us of the struggle against the british, eventhough at the time these people were fighting for enosis but only got independence? How much can we wipe off to reduce this preferential attachment? What is anyway a Cypriot identity? What do we teach our children about the past?

Personally I could not give a toss what we call the streets. No one uses street names here anyway - all directions are given as 'turn left at the traffic lights go past such and such supermarket and its the first house on the right'. Call the streets Hitler boulevard and Pol Pot avenue for all I care.
What we should teach our children about the past is that intollerance of 'others' and a belief in 'our' superiority and hard line uncompromising attitudes cost Cypriots dearly and that we must understand this so that we can avoid this disater in the future. But that ssumes we can find a way to live togeather as distinct communites in the first place.

I can assure you that no rational GC thinks that Cyprus is better off uniting with Greece.

I understand and believe this to be true (though one could ask how many GC (or TC for that matter) are 'rational'). It was not particularly rational in 59 to want union with Greece as far as I see it but most did back then. My point was that if you are looking at the issue of Cypriot identity seperate and distinct from the 'motherland' countires you have to rember that it WAS the desire of GC to actualy just be Greeks that happened to live in Cyprus. For a large portion of the GC communites history and the very essence of their struggle to free themselves from British rule is bound up in the idea of them being Greek and part of Greece - emotionaly and politicaly.

Unfortunately you may have not declared union with Turkey in paper, but in all other respects you're completely controlled by Turkey - of course I realize it's hard to get away. So if your hypothetical solution of a double enosis was even proposed, you'd structurally not have any issues...

We are not completely controlled by Turkey but we are almost completly dependent on Turkey finacially and physicaly to protect OUR rights to not be a political minority in our own homeland. Most TC would have issues with being part of Turkey - structurally and emotionaly. We would have to start driving on the other side of the road for a start

I would say most GC have the same attitude. But the majority in both cases finds difficulty calling ourselves Cypriots without further classification.

Personaly if ask I call myself Cypriot. If asked which part of Cyprus I say the North or say I am Turkish Cypriot

Last time I visited the UK, the EU immigration control officer asked me the following question: "Are you from the greek part or the turkish part?" Astounded as I were, the officer clarified further "There are two parts in Cyprus, right?" I didn't reply immediately I kept staring at her. I eventually told her I was Cypriot... it took her another 4 mins hammering the keyboard to let me through.

When I returned to the UK shortly after the RoC joined the EU I asked the customs offical if I had come from the EU or outside the EU (for the rules are very different in customs terms) and I was told that I had come not from Cyprus but from Turkey and thus arrived from outside the EU.
Did you go through the 'EU passport' entry gate in the UK? If so that is probably why they were questioning you. Probably just trying to make sure you used the correct gate.

[antonis]

What we should teach our children about the past is that intollerance of 'others' and a belief in 'our' superiority and hard line uncompromising attitudes cost Cypriots dearly and that we must understand this so that we can avoid this disater in the future. But that ssumes we can find a way to live togeather as distinct communites in the first place.

So a precondition for teaching them what you said is a solution to the Cyprus problem. Is that what you're saying? If so then that doesn't help much...

We are not completely controlled by Turkey but we are almost completly dependent on Turkey finacially and physicaly to protect OUR rights to not be a political minority in our own homeland.

Hm... so you are dependent financially and physically but you are not controlled politically? And you are saying that Turkey protects your rights so that you don't become a political minority in the RoC? Or in the northern part? Don't worry about the RoC, worry more about how Turkey makes sure that you will eventually become an arithmetic minority in the northern part of the island.

Did you go through the 'EU passport' entry gate in the UK? If so that is probably why they were questioning you. Probably just trying to make sure you used the correct gate.

I was talking about passport (immigration) control, not customs. For immigration control you don't need to enter from an EU country to go through the "fast" lane - as long as you are a citizen of an EU country.

[erolz]

So a precondition for teaching them what you said is a solution to the Cyprus problem. Is that what you're saying? If so then that doesn't help much...

It's not that it's a precondition of teaching them this but it would kinda hard (imo) to teach the children the importance of tollerance of others and the rest if the adults have failed to find a way of living togeather peacfully, don't you think?

Hm... so you are dependent financially and physically but you are not controlled politically? And you are saying that Turkey protects your rights so that you don't become a political minority in the RoC? Or in the northern part? Don't worry about the RoC, worry more about how Turkey makes sure that you will eventually become an arithmetic minority in the northern part of the island.

Yes there has been signifcant numbers of Turkish settlers comming to the North since 74. However many have come with the 'blessing' of many TC and many are as Cypriot as nayone lese by now. You can not compare a dilution of our rights to have a say in our own future by Turkish settlers and the loss of these rights we experienced from 63 at the hands of GC. Firstly the fact remains that the settlers - despite their numbers have little political power here and even less economic power. Yes they have numbers but they have almost no MPs. Secondly as I said many of them are as Cypriot now as any other TC. Thirdly they have not used force and terror to drive us from our homes or from execrising our democratic rights. If we could have had our rights as a community in Cyprus protected and respected without the need for Turkish intervention or the 'cost' of large scale immigration from the Turkish mainland we would have chosen that. We never had any such choice.

I was talking about passport (immigration) control, not customs. For immigration control you don't need to enter from an EU country to go through the "fast" lane - as long as you are a citizen of an EU country.

All I was suggesting was that this was what that perhaps this is what the immigration officer was asking you - though maybe in a clumsy way. If you were from the south then you were by default an EU citizen and if from the North then not. Anyway I am not sure what your point was in the first place? That because a British immigration officer asked which 'side' of Cyprus you are from this is evidence that we are more Turkish than Cypriot or you more Greek than Cypriot? Or have I just lost the plot?

[magikthrill]

Of course it should be the eventual goal but TODAY we are two seperate communites - more seperate physicaly and emotionaly than we have ever been before. If we want to reach this goal then FIRST we have to find a way to live togeather as distinct communites - because we are currently distinct communites.

Erolz,

As I said before I agree with many of the points you make since they are based on logic and respect. HOWEVER (let's face it this forum wouldn't work it without the howevers ) one think I noticed is the way you keep on jumping from the past to the present in order to get your arguments across. Don't get me wrong this is fine, but a solution can not be expected when we continue talking about the past. Yes TCs were victims of GC extremist violence but it worked the other way around too. In order for us to achieve a solution is to put the past aside (not forget it - absolutely not). Both communites have suffered (and still continue to do so).

In other words, I admire your posts because they are just like Piratis'. Only not everyone jumps to attack you because you only mention side of the story. So I figured I'd do that

[erolz]

As I said before I agree with many of the points you make since they are based on logic and respect. HOWEVER (let's face it this forum wouldn't work it without the howevers ) one think I noticed is the way you keep on jumping from the past to the present in order to get your arguments across. Don't get me wrong this is fine, but a solution can not be expected when we continue talking about the past. Yes TCs were victims of GC extremist violence but it worked the other way around too. In order for us to achieve a solution is to put the past aside (not forget it - absolutely not). Both communites have suffered (and still continue to do so).

I am sure there is something interesting going on here then - but I am too dumb or tierd or both to weedle it out.

Where you see a 'jumping back and forth' between distinct and seperate periods of times each with their own set of circumstance I see a single continous and ongoing struggle of the TC community in Cyprus that continues to this day. In that sense the past is also the present. I look for a future that marks the end of this struggle by the TC community in Cyprus.

Of course both communites have suffered. Of course we need to move on. I accept all of this but I know of no way of explaing what kind of future the TC want seperate from the ongoing and consistent struggle that the TC people have been engaged in since 63 and earlier. There is an idea that the TC struggle ended in 74 and the GC struggle began then. This is not an idea that I concurr with. If you really want to draw a line under the past (and that is not what I say we should do at all) then to me it seems you must draw that line from today - thus the fact that GC used to own / control this property or that area of land pre 74 is also 'behind the line' so to speak. Just as I accept that it is not reasonable for GC to draw a line today and forget everything that occured from 74 to today so I also think it is not reasonable for TC to agree that a line should be drawn on the past - but only from 74 backwards and not from today backwards.

Anyway I really am pushing the limits of my ability to go without sleep. I am off for a good 10-12 hours sleeping. Have a nice day as they say in the good ole US of A (though with a bit more sincerity perhaps?)

[magikthrill]

erolz,

hope you're reading this after you wake up (so far ive had a good 24 hours of sleep in the past 36 hours after a long sleepless week )

WHen I as referring to your jumping is when in one post you were referring to 63-74 events and then you say TCs are different TODAY.

anyway, as far as the property issue is concerned the only reason why this can't be forgotten is because it STILL belongs to the original owners. Just because it was stolen 30+ years ago then that doesnt mean it still doesnt belong to them.

[insan]

Yes TCs were victims of GC extremist violence but it worked the other way around too. In order for us to achieve a solution is to put the past aside (not forget it - absolutely not). Both communites have suffered (and still continue to do so).

Hi magikthrill,

It's easy to say in order for us to achieve a solution is to put the past aside. Have GCs put the past aside concerning turkey and Turkish army? No. So, while it is obvious GCs too, couldn't put the past aside; is asking TCs to put the past aside, fair?

Though, as I said; noone put the past aside by the advice of others. It depends upon circumstances surrounding us. It depends upon healthy relations of two communities.

Let Cypriots have relations, make collaborations, cooperations; then they know whether to put the past aside or not.

[magikthrill]

Hi magikthrill,

It's easy to say in order for us to achieve a solution is to put the past aside. Have GCs put the past aside concerning turkey and Turkish army? No. So, while it is obvious GCs too, couldn't put the past aside; is asking TCs to put the past aside, fair?

Though, as I said; noone put the past aside by the advice of others. It depends upon circumstances surrounding us. It depends upon healthy relations of two communities.

Let Cypriots have relations, make collaborations, cooperations; then they know whether to put the past aside or not.

Insan,

I said put the past aside. Turkey and the Turkish army are there now in the present pointing their guns and tanks towards the south. thats why its hard for GCs to put that aside.

[insan]

Insan,

I said put the past aside. Turkey and the Turkish army are there now in the present pointing their guns and tanks towards the south. thats why its hard for GCs to put that aside.

So, What are heavily armed 15.000 National Guard+ 6000 Eldik+ 20.000 reserves doing in the south from 1963 up until now, the present time? That's why it's hard for TCs to immediately put that aside. You demand all Turkish troops to get out of Cyprus but you never offered let's reduce the military presence on both sides, equally. Why?