Cyprus-Forum.com

[GreekForumer]

Whatever excuse you put forward we TCs will always thank Turkey for taking action when they did as it was our lives at risk, this is something you will never understand.

Thank you Turkey.

And what exactly was the protection plan for those TCs left outside of the 37% captured territory in 1974 ?

The TCs in the North in 1974 were thankful of course.

But how about the TCs left outside the 37% ? Did they feel Turkey put them in extreme danger by killing thousands of Greeks and cleaning thousands more angry Greeks out of the 37% ?

Was Turkey only planning to rescue half the TCs ?

[zan]

We have had this discussion in this forum about 100 times in the past! Based on the UN Charter, the pinnacle of international law and the only international treaty that has the status of ruling over any other international agreement, the Turkish invasion was illegal!

Turkey did not have the right to invade Cyprus, more so prior to the issue of the Junta coup against Makarios being discuss buy the UN SC, and prior to the UN SC issuing of a resolution calling for any set of measures or intervention against the coupists and the Greek Junta!

Article 103 of the UN Charter rules the provision for "unilateral intervention" of the "1960 treaty of guarantee," inapplicable and ineffective, since it contradicts with the provisions of the UN Charter, the highest level of international treaty and the pinnacle of international law!

The Turkish invasion, set aside the occupation, the ethnic cleansing and the property looting of the GCs, was illegal, full stop! If Turkey had the guts, it would have accepted a judgment by the international court of Hague, when Cyprus had invited her in numerous occasions to do so!

Turkish invasion of Cyprus in 1974, was in violation of the UN Charter and consequently of international law, full stop!

Whatever excuse you put forward we TCs will always thank Turkey for taking action when they did as it was our lives at risk, this is something you will never understand.

Thank you Turkey.

VP - we have said this many times but for some reason it just isn't getting across.

Kifeas - so Turkey should have waited for the UN to have its meetings and conclude its ok to go in before anyone intervenes ?

Didn't Makarios in his speech on the 19th July more or less beg for the international community to act ?

I know his speech is posted somehere on this forum, but the following from a Hellenic website surely sums up the desperation at the time.........

The relations between the Greek Junta and the Makarios administration severed by 1974. The military operation on 15th July 1974 by the Greek Junta and its Greek Cypriot collaborators, which overthrew Makarios, was the last straw of events on the island. Many AKEL supporters together with others who were known as anti-Junta and against ENOSIS were killed or harassed. Soon after his overthrow from the presidency, Makarios fled from the island and in his speech to UN Security Council (19 July 1974, Security Council Official Records, S/PV.1780) declared that Greece invaded Cyprus. Here are some parts from that speech:

"The coup is clearly an invasion from outside, in flagrant violation of the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus. The so-called coup was the work of the Greek officers staffing and commanding the National Guard."
"Without trace of respect for the democratic rights of the Cypriot people, without respect for the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus, the Greek junta has extended its dictatorship to Cyprus."
"The coup was an invasion."
"The coup caused much bloodshed and took a great toll of human lives."
"...the events in Cyprus do not constitute an internal matter of the Greeks of Cyprus. The Turks of Cyprus are also affected. The coup of the Greek junta is an invasion, and from its consequences the whole people of Cyprus suffers, both Greek and Turks."

http://groups.msn.com/TheHellenicCommunity/yourwebpage10.msnw

Interestingly, this website also says the split of land ownership between GC & TC was 70/30, but that has been argued to death in other threads.

Yep! I posted his speach a few times my friend but the GCs seem to go blank on that one....

[Kifeas]

LondonBoy, I had you down for a smarter person!

You said:

so Turkey should have waited for the UN to have its meetings and conclude its ok to go in before anyone intervenes ?

The UN Charter states clearly that no UN member country has the right to intervene militarily into the territory of another UN member country, without prior UN SC authorisation! This is not what I say, but what the UN Charter says, the Charter signed by all UN member states, including Turkey and Cyprus, and serves as the pinnacle of international law, the constitution so to say of the United nations!

Didn't Makarios in his speech on the 19th July more or less beg for the international community to act ?

Makarios in his speech on the 19th of July 1974 asked the UN SC to take action or measures, via a resolution, against the illegal intervention of the Greek Junta in Cyprus! Turkey, instead of waiting for the matter to be discussed by the SC and see what measures or action would have been forwarded by the competent body of the UN, rushed to prematurely and illegally invade Cyprus so that it "undercuts" any UN SC initiatives or effords; for the sole purpose of seizing part of the country for its own strategic and geo-political ambitions, using the safety of the TCs as a pre-text and the “treaty of guarantee” as an erroneous platform!

The coup is clearly an invasion from outside!

The coup was not an invasion from outside, because no troops came from Greece to carry it out! The coup was performed by the GC National Guard (Greek Cypriot soldiers,) acting under the orders of existing mainland Greek officers in its (NG’s) command! It was an illegal intervention from the Greek Junta, but it was not an invasion as such!

"The coup caused much bloodshed and took a great toll of human lives."

The coup cased the death of exactly 98 people, from both fighting sides! Most of them were killed during the attack of the National Guard (commando units) against the presidential palace on the 15th of July!

http://groups.msn.com/TheHellenicCommunity/yourwebpage10.msnw

Interestingly, this website also says the split of land ownership between GC & TC was 70/30, but that has been argued to death in other threads.

Really???

Well, you are free to tell this private individual that constructed this website that he is a fool!

If the TCs were the owners of 30% of the land in Cyprus, why your side then accepted in the Annan plan the return of 1/3 of GC properties within the 30% of the north TC state! You want to know the real TC ownership! It is 17.5% of the private land, which total private land is the 70% of the territory of Cyprus; or the owners of 12.3% of the total area of Cyprus! This is what the RoC land registry says, since 1960 that Cyprus gained its independence!

[kurupetos]

You didn't understand it did you Zan? Yeah admitedly it was too much for you.

Well let me spell it to you:The same way Turkey discovered a legal excuse to start an "intervention", the very same legal excuse exists TODAY for Greece to start a new "intervention".

And supposely the two should cooperate (militarily) to restore the state of affairs!

No it does not because the Zurich agreement does not exist any more....Nannanana

And who abolished it stupid idiot? F U

[phoenix]

LondonBoy, I had you down for a smarter person!

You said:

so Turkey should have waited for the UN to have its meetings and conclude its ok to go in before anyone intervenes ?

The UN Charter states clearly that no UN member country has the right to intervene militarily into the territory of another UN member country, without prior UN SC authorisation! This is not what I say, but what the UN Charter says, the Charter signed by all UN member states, including Turkey and Cyprus, and serves as the pinnacle of international law, the constitution so to say of the United nations!

Didn't Makarios in his speech on the 19th July more or less beg for the international community to act ?

Makarios in his speech on the 19th of July 1974 asked the UN SC to take action or measures, via a resolution, against the illegal intervention of the Greek Junta in Cyprus! Turkey, instead of waiting for the matter to be discussed by the SC and see what measures or action would have been forwarded by the competent body of the UN, rushed to prematurely and illegally invade Cyprus so that it "undercuts" any UN SC initiatives or effords; for the sole purpose of seizing part of the country for its own strategic and geo-political ambitions, using the safety of the TCs as a pre-text and the “treaty of guarantee” as an erroneous platform!

The coup is clearly an invasion from outside!

The coup was not an invasion from outside, because no troops came from Greece to carry it out! The coup was performed by the GC National Guard (Greek Cypriot soldiers,) acting under the orders of existing mainland Greek officers in its (NG’s) command! It was an illegal intervention from the Greek Junta, but it was not an invasion as such!

"The coup caused much bloodshed and took a great toll of human lives."

The coup cased the death of exactly 98 people, from both fighting sides! Most of them were killed during the attack of the National Guard (commando units) against the presidential palace on the 15th of July!

http://groups.msn.com/TheHellenicCommunity/yourwebpage10.msnw

Interestingly, this website also says the split of land ownership between GC & TC was 70/30, but that has been argued to death in other threads.

Really???

Well, you are free to tell this private individual that constructed this website that he is a fool!

If the TCs were the owners of 30% of the land in Cyprus, why your side then accepted in the Annan plan the return of 1/3 of GC properties within the 30% of the north TC state! You want to know the real TC ownership! It is 17.5% of the private land, which total private land is the 70% of the territory of Cyprus; or the owners of 12.3% of the total area of Cyprus! This is what the RoC land registry says, since 1960 that Cyprus gained its independence!

Kifeas, a very illuminating deconstruction.

I hope LondonBoy appreciates it too.

Phoenix

[CopperLine]

Kifeas wrote,

The UN Charter states clearly that no UN member country has the right to intervene militarily into the territory of another UN member country, without prior UN SC authorisation! This is not what I say, but what the UN Charter says, the Charter signed by all UN member states, including Turkey and Cyprus, and serves as the pinnacle of international law, the constitution so to say of the United nations!

Ands/he is wrong, the Charter says nothing of the sort. The Charter does not give on country the right to intervene in another; it does not give this 'right' following Secuirty Council 'authorisation'. This is nonsense.
Further, the Charter is not the pinnacle o international law, it is, if anything, the foundation of international law. Additionally it is misleading to call it the 'constitution of the United Nations' not least because then it could not be the 'pinnacle' (or foundation) of international law. (The UN is an organisation, whereas international law is an institution. practice or code).

Earlier Kifeas wrote of the UN Charter :

...the only international treaty that has the status of ruling over any other international agreement, the Turkish invasion was illegal!

No, again. You've fundamentally misunderstood how international law works. The Charter does not "rule over any other international agreement"; instead other treaties are supposed to be 'Charter consistent'. There is a world of difference between these two descriptions, and crucially the second description allows for what actually goes on in international law namely the for judgements (interpretations) to be made by juridically competent bodies. We might not like their judgements but what is absolutely clear is that international law is rarely if ever the black-or-white cut that Kifeas imagines it to be.



On a tangential note, I've got to agree with Free_Cypriot when s/he wrote :

everyhing that was done created or solved during the 20 years before 1974 was designed and excecuted to benefir everyone except the cyprus people

[phoenix]

Kifeas wrote,

The UN Charter states clearly that no UN member country has the right to intervene militarily into the territory of another UN member country, without prior UN SC authorisation! This is not what I say, but what the UN Charter says, the Charter signed by all UN member states, including Turkey and Cyprus, and serves as the pinnacle of international law, the constitution so to say of the United nations!

Ands/he is wrong, the Charter says nothing of the sort. The Charter does not give on country the right to intervene in another; it does not give this 'right' following Secuirty Council 'authorisation'. This is nonsense.
Further, the Charter is not the pinnacle o international law, it is, if anything, the foundation of international law. Additionally it is misleading to call it the 'constitution of the United Nations' not least because then it could not be the 'pinnacle' (or foundation) of international law. (The UN is an organisation, whereas international law is an institution. practice or code).

Earlier Kifeas wrote of the UN Charter :

...the only international treaty that has the status of ruling over any other international agreement, the Turkish invasion was illegal!

No, again. You've fundamentally misunderstood how international law works. The Charter does not "rule over any other international agreement"; instead other treaties are supposed to be 'Charter consistent'. There is a world of difference between these two descriptions, and crucially the second description allows for what actually goes on in international law namely the for judgements (interpretations) to be made by juridically competent bodies. We might not like their judgements but what is absolutely clear is that international law is rarely if ever the black-or-white cut that Kifeas imagines it to be.



On a tangential note, I've got to agree with Free_Cypriot when s/he wrote :

everyhing that was done created or solved during the 20 years before 1974 was designed and excecuted to benefir everyone except the cyprus people

Please apply Occam's razor to this and re-post.

Pip-pip
Phoenix

[CopperLine]

Occam's razor ? Your point being ? Applied where ? How ?

[zan]

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem,


I think this DOES apply to Kifeas though

[74LB]

LondonBoy, I had you down for a smarter person!

You said:

so Turkey should have waited for the UN to have its meetings and conclude its ok to go in before anyone intervenes ?

The UN Charter states clearly that no UN member country has the right to intervene militarily into the territory of another UN member country, without prior UN SC authorisation! This is not what I say, but what the UN Charter says, the Charter signed by all UN member states, including Turkey and Cyprus, and serves as the pinnacle of international law, the constitution so to say of the United nations!

Didn't Makarios in his speech on the 19th July more or less beg for the international community to act ?

Makarios in his speech on the 19th of July 1974 asked the UN SC to take action or measures, via a resolution, against the illegal intervention of the Greek Junta in Cyprus! Turkey, instead of waiting for the matter to be discussed by the SC and see what measures or action would have been forwarded by the competent body of the UN, rushed to prematurely and illegally invade Cyprus so that it "undercuts" any UN SC initiatives or effords; for the sole purpose of seizing part of the country for its own strategic and geo-political ambitions, using the safety of the TCs as a pre-text and the “treaty of guarantee” as an erroneous platform!

The coup is clearly an invasion from outside!

The coup was not an invasion from outside, because no troops came from Greece to carry it out! The coup was performed by the GC National Guard (Greek Cypriot soldiers,) acting under the orders of existing mainland Greek officers in its (NG’s) command! It was an illegal intervention from the Greek Junta, but it was not an invasion as such!

"The coup caused much bloodshed and took a great toll of human lives."

The coup cased the death of exactly 98 people, from both fighting sides! Most of them were killed during the attack of the National Guard (commando units) against the presidential palace on the 15th of July!

http://groups.msn.com/TheHellenicCommunity/yourwebpage10.msnw

Interestingly, this website also says the split of land ownership between GC & TC was 70/30, but that has been argued to death in other threads.

Really???

Well, you are free to tell this private individual that constructed this website that he is a fool!

If the TCs were the owners of 30% of the land in Cyprus, why your side then accepted in the Annan plan the return of 1/3 of GC properties within the 30% of the north TC state! You want to know the real TC ownership! It is 17.5% of the private land, which total private land is the 70% of the territory of Cyprus; or the owners of 12.3% of the total area of Cyprus! This is what the RoC land registry says, since 1960 that Cyprus gained its independence!

Kifeas, with all due respect to the the UN and its SC/charters/laws but try telling that to the people in the Bosnian town of Srebrenica just a decade ago. These were people that had been through your UN SC meetings, they even had so-called 'UN protection' for Gods sake........and this was their fate.........

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/675945.stm

The rest of your points refer to quotes from the 'Hellenic Website', and are not mine but they quoting parts of Makarios's speech - if you/anyone has a link to this speech then please post it so we can read for ourselves.