Cyprus-Forum.com

[cannedmoose]

Metecyp,

It is a sham when your leadership is trying to legalise the effects of the TUrkish invasion and occupation.

You guys suffered, but we have suffered a hell of a lot too. I think Othello sums it up in his above post!

If anything, I think Talat wants the opposite... shame a certain GC leader won't go one step forward as well.

[Othellos]

.....Now, you come here and tell me that our struggle is nothing but a sham!?

No one has ever questioned or doubted the suffering of many TCs in 1974 and before, metecyp. All those who believe in reunification (without the quotes) should be ready to acknowlede that people from both sides suffered and at the same time be prepared to put the past behind. While in the event of a solution the GCs are expected to forget about Turkey's invasion and ongoing that is keeping many of them refugees in their own country and for the last 30 years, some TCs seem to think that their own experiences of 1974 and before justify a solution of permanent discriminations based on peoples ethnic background. It is for this why I wonder if there is any point to discuss such a "reunification" (this time with quotes) with them.

O.

[-mikkie2-]

I second that Othellos. We are deemed to have to pay a price, yet the actions of Turkey in Cyprus which perpertrated many more crimes on a grander scale is expected to get away with being punished!

[insan]

It is a sham when your leadership is trying to legalise the effects of the TUrkish invasion and occupation.

If Makarios and his crew had accepted TC community as a "politically equal" state partner of GC community and if Grivas and his crew(Both military and civillian) had abandoned the Enosis idea; Cyprus problem would have been resolved in 1972. If you don't believe me ask Klerides, Stavrinides and Markides to tell you. Turkish intervention and de-facto partition is a result of the insistence of Enosis and "majority rule". Hellenes struggled for the things they believed were the best for Cyprus. Likewise Turks(includes TCs) didn't believe that what Hellenes want was also the best for them. Thus, they resisted and objected against both "Majority Rule" and Enosis. Their counter demands were "Political Equality" or Taksim. Thus, TCs and Turks also struggled for the thing they believed were the best for Cyprus to put a full stop this neverending inter-communal strife.

You guys suffered, but we have suffered a hell of a lot too.

True, mikkie. Both sides suffered a hell of a lot. Still both sides are struggling what they believe is right.

Restricted bi-zonality vs non-restricted bi-zonality
"Political equality" vs "Majority Rule"
Return of all refugees vs return of a part of refugees
.............
.......
etc.

In the past we had only one impasse:

"Majority Rule" vs "Political Equality"(In shape of political safe-guards)


The big apple:

The huge pain and damage we caused each other during the armed struggle.

[metecyp]

As for your family history Metecyp, I'm sure you'll get the standard response of 'my family was more persecuted than yours'. It's about time some people realised that pain is on both sides.

That's all I want, i.e. realization that we both sufferred and lost. I didn't tell my story to offend anyone and act like a victim. I just want arrogance out of this forum. Don't tell me that our struggle is a sham when we sufferred so much. I do try to understand your losses so try to understand mine before dismissing it as a sham. That's all I wanted to say.

While in the event of a solution the GCs are expected to forget about Turkey's invasion and ongoing that is keeping many of them refugees in their own country and for the last 30 years, some TCs seem to think that their own experiences of 1974 and before justify a solution of permanent discriminations based on peoples ethnic background. It is for this why I wonder if there is any point to discuss such a "reunification" (this time with quotes) with them.

Nobody is asking GCs to forget about anything. I hope most of the GC refugees can return back in a solution. But your definition is misleading. No TC wants to discriminate against GCs due to their ethnicity. All we want is to do is to govern ourselves in our zone in a bicommunal bizonal federation. We don't want to be minority among GCs again because the past and the present mentality of the GC majority do not let us trust them that we won't be harmed. How do you want me to trust the GC majority when we see forum members that have difficulty accepting the RoC? We just want acknowledgment of the basic principle that formed the RoC (i.e. TCs community is one of the equal founding members of the RoC). Now, if you believe that this is discrimination, I guess the RoC is also based on discrimination since it provides certain advantages to TCs. Then I also believe that there's no point in talking about reunification.

[-mikkie2-]

Metecyp,

Bicommunal, bizonal federation does not mean that we must be physically seperate or to mean that you guys need to be numerically larger in number. It means bicommunal in the sense that we all together work for a common future and bizonal meaning there are two zones where each community has some sort of juristiction.

TC's seem to want two seperate entities linked as a very loose partnership. In other words a confederation, which is different to federation. This is the nub of the problem. On the one hand you say you don't want to restrict the rights of GC's and on the other you want two entities that are defined by numerical superiority. The two are obviously diametrically opposed.

You either want separation or unification. Which is it? If you want unification then the rights of all citizens need to be respected and everyone treated equally. This does not mean compromising political equality.

[erolz]

Does this mean Erolz that you agree with Viewpoint's ...views about the Eurovision song contest being an example of a "GC racist attitude"?

No

For some, the word "struggle" may carry noble connotations but this is not always the case.

Certainly for many GC their 'struggle' in the 50 (and 60 and 70) for ENOSIS was a 'noble' struggle - despite that fact that is was based on an ideas of ethnicity and race and took no account or regard for TC as indivduals or as a community.

It seems to me that the TC "struggle" that you refer to and that continues to date, is about legalizing the partition and ethnic cleansing performed in Cyprus by Turkey and there is certainly nothing "noble" about that. While you do your best to invent all kinds of excuses to justify a state of apartheit and racial discrimination in the event of a future solution, I cannot help but wonder if there is a point in discussing...."reunification" with those who think along the same lines with you?

I understand why you consider this to be so but it not how I see things. From the point at which it became clear that Britian would no longer be in control of Cyprus and that the GC community in Cyprus sought to repalce British rule with Greek rule the struggle of the TC community in Cyprus began. It was struggle based on ideas of 'self determination' and on a notion of not wanting to be under effective political control of a community / people (GC) that had shown nothing but disregard for the TC community - politcaly and physicaly. It appeared in 1960 that we had reached the end of that struggle. An independent Cyprus that recognised our (equal) rights as a partner community in our own homeland with protections to ensure that we would not become a politcal minority in our own homeland at the mercy of a numericaly larger community that had shown scant regard for our rights needs and wishes as indviduals or as a partner community. By 63 it was clear that this hope that we had reached the end of our struggle was unfounded and the struggle continued and entered its darkest phase for TC. In 74 everything changed in terms of the balnce of power, who bore the brunt of the suffering and much else. What did not change was the nature and objective of our struggle. Yes after 74 we had regained an ability to a degree to be masters of our own destiny and not at the mercy of GC (though arguably at the mercy of Turkey). The problem was that this was no ultimate solution - partly because of the massive cost to GC (and also to TC - we too had to 'up and leave' and lost property and rights - thoug not in the same scale as GC) and partly because the international community agreed that it was no ultimate solution. For TC any talk of a 'settlement' is in terms of this ongoing struggle of the TC community in Cyprus to not be made into a political minority in their own homeland. We did not want your land in 74. We did not want to restict your rights. We did not want you to be forced from your homes. We wanted to be accepted as an equal partner community in Cyprus and to have our rights respected. What we wanted was and end to staus quo that had been established in 64 - where by we had lost al the rights as a community that charterised our struggle as a people. For 11 years we hoped for a solution whilst living in extreme conditions for much of that time and existing as a disnefranchised community in our own homeland. In 74 events took place that threatened the very survival of the TC community. We did not chose Turkish miltary intervention and the division of the Island and all the pain that caused. We welcomed it because it was ultimately an end to our direct suffering and a end to the direct threat to us as a community that the coup represnted - not an end to our struggle (at least not without international recognition and acceptance). We were not happy that our rights and saftey had to be secured at the espense of yours but in an ultimate choice between giving up all our rights or forcing the loss of some of yours to protect ours we accepted the later. Only a community of saints would have done otherwise.

All I want today is what we wanted from the point at which it became clear that sooner or later Britian would leave Cyprus - namely to not become a political minority in our own homeland at the total mercy of a numercial larger GC community with a history of at best antipahy and at worse open hatred towards us. I do not want a racial pure TC state in Cyprus. I do not want aparthied. I do not want racial descrimination. I do not want your rights to be restricted. I do not want your land, your wealth or anything else. I just do not want to be forced into accepting a position of political minority at the mercy of a numericaly larger GC community in Cyprus. If you can give me what I want (and what the TC community has struggled for consistently since 60 and before) then I can give you everything you want. However if everything you want includes a right for the larger GC community to be able to control and dominate the smaller TC community in Cyprus without let or hinderance - that I can not and will not give. If the consequence of that refusal is GC loss then I am sorry and regretful and sad that is the case but still not to the degree that I will give up the TC struggle to solve these GC issues.

[Othellos]

Erolz,
We can discuss Enosis, Taksim, EOKA, TMT, 1963 and 1974 for days, weeks, months or even forever and we will never agree 100%. Nevertheless, not even God can change the past. I will therefore try to concentrate to the future, which is a lot more important.

You say that you do not want apartheid, racial discrimination, restriction of rights etc and yet you seem unwilling to understand that this is exactly what you are asking for in a solution where you demand that an "x" number of people from ethnic group "A" shall be restricted to return in their actual homes! At the same time you seem to be unready to put the past behind as you insist that such racial discriminations become permanent, in an otherwise "united" and "European" Cyprus. The standard TC explanation for this stance is "your past experiences and suffering". GCs on the other hand are expected to put behind their own long suffering and start living as if all these never happened. Not only this is a totally one-sided approach to the whole idea of a solution, but in my opinion it can never solve anything.

For years we hear the same terms used by the TCs again and again: political minority Vs political equality, equal partnership etc. What I am trying to understand is how can the GCs or the TCs dominate one another in a truly unified and democratic country where all citizens will have the same clearly specified obligations and rights and where everyone's culture and religion will be respected in full? Yes, legitimate concerns must be addressed but only in a way that will not violate someone else's right to exist in his or her home.

Any true reunification process will take the form of a true reconciliation process. While one cannot expect things to change overnight, at the end of the day if Cyprus is to be truly and permanently reunited, then the wounds of the past must be healed. Racial discrimination is definitely not a cure as nothing good can ever come out of it. Call me naive but I do have a problem understanding what good it will do to you to restrict people because of their ethnic background, from their right to live / exist in peace on a part of their country where in the past and until 1974, they existed for centuries.

O.

[erolz]

You say that you do not want apartheid, racial discrimination, restriction of rights etc and yet you seem unwilling to understand that this is exactly what you are asking for in a solution where you demand that an "x" number of people from ethnic group "A" shall be restricted to return in their actual homes!

What I have said is I do not want any of these things, provided a senario can be created that also protects the TC communities rights as well. If it is not possible to achieve both without any limits then I want GC (and TC) to _agree_ and _accept_ some limits, at least initialy, as a compromise.

At the same time you seem to be unready to put the past behind as you insist that such racial discriminations become permanent, in an otherwise "united" and "European" Cyprus. The standard TC explanation for this stance is "your past experiences and suffering". GCs on the other hand are expected to put behind their own long suffering and start living as if all these never happened. Not only this is a totally one-sided approach to the whole idea of a solution, but in my opinion it can never solve anything.

My argument is that TC have a RIGHT to some degree of self determination as an equal partner community in a RoC state. This is a matter of principal and that even if there had been no 'oppresion' of TC by GC the principal would remain - just as you would not be willing to have accepted Cyprus being part of the UK (united kingdom) with full and equal rights as indivduals as any other UK citizen.
I do not expect GC to agree a solution that forgets everything prior to today. I am happy for as many properties to be return, as much freedom to live anywhere, to be politicaly represented anywhere as is also compatible with the proctection of the TC communites rights. Where the full excerise of your rights clashes with those of the TC community I would like BOTH sides to ACCEPT some limits - to achieve a greater goal of getting to a position where we can evole into a truley single united Cypriot people.

For years we hear the same terms used by the TCs again and again: political minority Vs political equality, equal partnership etc. What I am trying to understand is how can the GCs or the TCs dominate one another in a truly unified and democratic country where all citizens will have the same clearly specified obligations and rights and where everyone's culture and religion will be respected in full? Yes, legitimate concerns must be addressed but only in a way that will not violate someone else's right to exist in his or her home.

What right would TC have to insist that Turkish remians an offical language in Cyprus under you senario? What right would we have to insist on blocking a new call from ENOSIS (which I accept is unlikely but it makes my point of the difference) in your senario? What right would TC have to block new legisaltion that affected them adversely realtive to the GC community in your senario - like say a bill limiting foreign investment from non EU countries. In your senario we would have no RIGHT to block these things. We would just have to rely on your 'goodwill' towards us and 'hope' that you would not do these kinds of things.

Any true reunification process will take the form of a true reconciliation process. While one cannot expect things to change overnight, at the end of the day if Cyprus is to be truly and permanently reunited, then the wounds of the past must be healed. Racial discrimination is definitely not a cure as nothing good can ever come out of it. Call me naive but I do have a problem understanding what good it will do to you to restrict people because of their ethnic background, from their right to live / exist in peace on a part of their country where in the past and until 1974, they existed for centuries.

O.

What good it will do is allow TC and GC to live togeather and hopefully over time learn how to evolve from being two seperate communites into one single united people. Our end goal is the same - a Cyprus where everyone thinks of themselves as simply Cypriot, where the desires on many basic issues are not divided on historic racial tags of GC and TC. Where there is no need to limit total rights of the GC vs TC becasue we will all just be Cypriots. What we disagree on (apparently?) is how we get there. You want us to get there by TC simply agreeing to be a political minority and hoping that a politicaly dominant GC commuinty will not do anything to harm TC or to undermine their interets based on ehtnic lines. I want us to first create a senario whereby a GC numerical majority can not do anything that affetcs TC differently to GC without the consent of the TC community, as a matter of right and not as a mtter of 'hope they do not do these things'.

[Viewpoint]

Back to the subject,

Seeing we have missed the opportunity to send a joint effort this year uniting us at least in music, maybe we can ask Mr Papadop to allow us to send an entry from Northern Cyprus or do you think he would threaten to take the EBC to ECHR????