Cyprus-Forum.com

[EPSILON]

"We are in a political crisis" the King of Belgium, Albert, said last Monday.
The country remained without a government for 11 weeks after the general elections.

Mr Piter De Krem,president of Duch speaking political party , said that he counry is in a situation of emergency.

The ex-minister Mr Loui Tompak charactirised the situation as the worst after 1968.

The Duch speaking population (6million out of total 10.5million), living in Flandra , one of the most rich area in Europe, consider that the federation system is taking thei money in favor of the poorest French speaking Vallonia in South.

The North part requesting costitusional changes which will make Belgium a country without central administration.

We are speaking about an effort of he rich part to be autonomus as Liga in Italy is requesting.

The problem in Belium has deep historical routes.

In Scotland after 270 years the separists weaked up in 70's and continue to increase their power inside the population, particlarly after the discovery of oil in North Sea.

If we look more carefully what is happening outside Cyprus then may we reconsider our targets for the Cyprus problem solution.

[Get Real!]

Hello? It's Sunday and we're taking it easy today...

[Nikitas]

Epsilon,

Interesting post, especially in view of the preamble of the Annan plan that pointed out how the plan was partly based on the Belgian model!

[Kifeas]

There are federations and federations! The US is a federation, so does Germany and Australia! Spain is also a federation, and even Russia is another one! We have to pick up the case, or the elements from each case, that are more suitable for Cyprus; taking into consideration the history of the place (all the history and not just the last 40 years because that is what suits the Turkish side,) the demographics and the existing legal framework; and not the “might is right” philosophy of the Turkish neo-ottoman attitude and mentality!

The Annan plan was a disguised confederation, and it didn't even resemble that of Belgium, regardless of what it was mentioned in it! Wish it was like Belgium, but it was far worst! It was a disguised confederation between two pre-existing ethnically based nation-states, via "virgin birth!" Totally unhistorical, unacceptable and intolerable for the Greek Cypriot existentialist consciousness!

It was drafted in such a way so that it would historically, politically and legally vindicate nearly all of the fait accomplices of the Turkish invasion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, property usurping, TC separatism and the division of Cyprus!

[Sotos]

A federation like Spain or Australia would be ok. Belgium doesn't seem like a good example!

[EPSILON]

There are federations and federations! The US is a federation, so does Germany and Australia! Spain is also a federation, and even Russia is another one! We have to pick up the case, or the elements from each case, that are more suitable for Cyprus; taking into consideration the history of the place (all the history and not just the last 40 years because that is what suits the Turkish side,) the demographics and the existing legal framework; and not the “might is right” philosophy of the Turkish neo-ottoman attitude and mentality!

The Annan plan was a disguised confederation, and it didn't even resemble that of Belgium, regardless of what it was mentioned in it! Wish it was like Belgium, but it was far worst! It was a disguised confederation between two pre-existing ethnically based nation-states, via "virgin birth!" Totally unhistorical, unacceptable and intolerable for the Greek Cypriot existentialist consciousness!

It was drafted in such a way so that it would historically, politically and legally vindicate nearly all of the fait accomplices of the Turkish invasion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, property usurping, TC separatism and the division of Cyprus!

The problem however is that the the other side (Turkish) is the winner of a war.Do you consider it possible they to accept a federation like the one we have in mind or even better a real indepedent state?

My answer is no. They will never do so, therefore if we really want a solution we must reconsider our side's targets.

My point is that any solution which include co-operation of the two communities under the unbrella of a central government will include also very heavy for us rights for the winner of the war.This will guide in a second 1963-1974 condition and which may reasulted a further disaster for the Gcs society.

My point here is that if we really want a permanent and final solution we must clearly have in mind

1.Turks invated by army and occupy a certain area of the Island-This is a result of a war (despite the reasons of the war)
2.There are no signs that the invator will withdraw without to secure rights against the Gcs.
3.The Gcs side has not and for the next 100 years will not have the military power to change the situation.
4.The international community will not accept Tcs to live in no country for long.
5.Gcs must urgently consider the actual facts and circustances and try to convist the invator to keep a much less land against a separate state to be recognised in the North.Of course solution always under the guarantee of the international community.
6.On the present targets of a solution we guide the Cyprus problem to make a second but similar circle like the one 1956-1974.
7.If you are the looser of a war and there are no signs for changes in this regard you must finally accept the circustances and try to minimize the damage-On the way we are going we are taking the risk to loose the whole Island within 15-20 years

[DT.]

There are federations and federations! The US is a federation, so does Germany and Australia! Spain is also a federation, and even Russia is another one! We have to pick up the case, or the elements from each case, that are more suitable for Cyprus; taking into consideration the history of the place (all the history and not just the last 40 years because that is what suits the Turkish side,) the demographics and the existing legal framework; and not the “might is right” philosophy of the Turkish neo-ottoman attitude and mentality!

The Annan plan was a disguised confederation, and it didn't even resemble that of Belgium, regardless of what it was mentioned in it! Wish it was like Belgium, but it was far worst! It was a disguised confederation between two pre-existing ethnically based nation-states, via "virgin birth!" Totally unhistorical, unacceptable and intolerable for the Greek Cypriot existentialist consciousness!

It was drafted in such a way so that it would historically, politically and legally vindicate nearly all of the fait accomplices of the Turkish invasion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, property usurping, TC separatism and the division of Cyprus!

The problem however is that the the other side (Turkish) is the winner of a war.Do you consider it possible they to accept a federation like the one we have in mind or even better a real indepedent state?

My answer is no. They will never do so, therefore if we really want a solution we must reconsider our side's targets.

My point is that any solution which include co-operation of the two communities under the unbrella of a central government will include also very heavy for us rights for the winner of the war.This will guide in a second 1963-1974 condition and which may reasulted a further disaster for the Gcs society.

My point here is that if we really want a permanent and final solution we must clearly have in mind

1.Turks invated by army and occupy a certain area of the Island-This is a result of a war (despite the reasons of the war)
2.There are no signs that the invator will withdraw without to secure rights against the Gcs.
3.The Gcs side has not and for the next 100 years will not have the military power to change the situation.
4.The international community will not accept Tcs to live in no country for long.
5.Gcs must urgently consider the actual facts and circustances and try to convist the invator to keep a much less land against a separate state to be recognised in the North.Of course solution always under the guarantee of the international community.
6.On the present targets of a solution we guide the Cyprus problem to make a second but similar circle like the one 1956-1974.
7.If you are the looser of a war and there are no signs for changes in this regard you must finally accept the circustances and try to minimize the damage-On the way we are going we are taking the risk to loose the whole Island within 15-20 years

so what do u suggest?

[EPSILON]

There are federations and federations! The US is a federation, so does Germany and Australia! Spain is also a federation, and even Russia is another one! We have to pick up the case, or the elements from each case, that are more suitable for Cyprus; taking into consideration the history of the place (all the history and not just the last 40 years because that is what suits the Turkish side,) the demographics and the existing legal framework; and not the “might is right” philosophy of the Turkish neo-ottoman attitude and mentality!

The Annan plan was a disguised confederation, and it didn't even resemble that of Belgium, regardless of what it was mentioned in it! Wish it was like Belgium, but it was far worst! It was a disguised confederation between two pre-existing ethnically based nation-states, via "virgin birth!" Totally unhistorical, unacceptable and intolerable for the Greek Cypriot existentialist consciousness!

It was drafted in such a way so that it would historically, politically and legally vindicate nearly all of the fait accomplices of the Turkish invasion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, property usurping, TC separatism and the division of Cyprus!

The problem however is that the the other side (Turkish) is the winner of a war.Do you consider it possible they to accept a federation like the one we have in mind or even better a real indepedent state?

My answer is no. They will never do so, therefore if we really want a solution we must reconsider our side's targets.

My point is that any solution which include co-operation of the two communities under the unbrella of a central government will include also very heavy for us rights for the winner of the war.This will guide in a second 1963-1974 condition and which may reasulted a further disaster for the Gcs society.

My point here is that if we really want a permanent and final solution we must clearly have in mind

1.Turks invated by army and occupy a certain area of the Island-This is a result of a war (despite the reasons of the war)
2.There are no signs that the invator will withdraw without to secure rights against the Gcs.
3.The Gcs side has not and for the next 100 years will not have the military power to change the situation.
4.The international community will not accept Tcs to live in no country for long.
5.Gcs must urgently consider the actual facts and circustances and try to convist the invator to keep a much less land against a separate state to be recognised in the North.Of course solution always under the guarantee of the international community.
6.On the present targets of a solution we guide the Cyprus problem to make a second but similar circle like the one 1956-1974.
7.If you are the looser of a war and there are no signs for changes in this regard you must finally accept the circustances and try to minimize the damage-On the way we are going we are taking the risk to loose the whole Island within 15-20 years

so what do u suggest?

I thing item 5 of my post is clear

[DT.]

There are federations and federations! The US is a federation, so does Germany and Australia! Spain is also a federation, and even Russia is another one! We have to pick up the case, or the elements from each case, that are more suitable for Cyprus; taking into consideration the history of the place (all the history and not just the last 40 years because that is what suits the Turkish side,) the demographics and the existing legal framework; and not the “might is right” philosophy of the Turkish neo-ottoman attitude and mentality!

The Annan plan was a disguised confederation, and it didn't even resemble that of Belgium, regardless of what it was mentioned in it! Wish it was like Belgium, but it was far worst! It was a disguised confederation between two pre-existing ethnically based nation-states, via "virgin birth!" Totally unhistorical, unacceptable and intolerable for the Greek Cypriot existentialist consciousness!

It was drafted in such a way so that it would historically, politically and legally vindicate nearly all of the fait accomplices of the Turkish invasion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, property usurping, TC separatism and the division of Cyprus!

The problem however is that the the other side (Turkish) is the winner of a war.Do you consider it possible they to accept a federation like the one we have in mind or even better a real indepedent state?

My answer is no. They will never do so, therefore if we really want a solution we must reconsider our side's targets.

My point is that any solution which include co-operation of the two communities under the unbrella of a central government will include also very heavy for us rights for the winner of the war.This will guide in a second 1963-1974 condition and which may reasulted a further disaster for the Gcs society.

My point here is that if we really want a permanent and final solution we must clearly have in mind

1.Turks invated by army and occupy a certain area of the Island-This is a result of a war (despite the reasons of the war)
2.There are no signs that the invator will withdraw without to secure rights against the Gcs.
3.The Gcs side has not and for the next 100 years will not have the military power to change the situation.
4.The international community will not accept Tcs to live in no country for long.
5.Gcs must urgently consider the actual facts and circustances and try to convist the invator to keep a much less land against a separate state to be recognised in the North.Of course solution always under the guarantee of the international community.
6.On the present targets of a solution we guide the Cyprus problem to make a second but similar circle like the one 1956-1974.
7.If you are the looser of a war and there are no signs for changes in this regard you must finally accept the circustances and try to minimize the damage-On the way we are going we are taking the risk to loose the whole Island within 15-20 years

so what do u suggest?

I thing item 5 of my post is clear

sorry, didn't take it as such.
How does it feel to be one of the few people on this forum TC and GC to be in complete agreement with VP?

[EPSILON]

There are federations and federations! The US is a federation, so does Germany and Australia! Spain is also a federation, and even Russia is another one! We have to pick up the case, or the elements from each case, that are more suitable for Cyprus; taking into consideration the history of the place (all the history and not just the last 40 years because that is what suits the Turkish side,) the demographics and the existing legal framework; and not the “might is right” philosophy of the Turkish neo-ottoman attitude and mentality!

The Annan plan was a disguised confederation, and it didn't even resemble that of Belgium, regardless of what it was mentioned in it! Wish it was like Belgium, but it was far worst! It was a disguised confederation between two pre-existing ethnically based nation-states, via "virgin birth!" Totally unhistorical, unacceptable and intolerable for the Greek Cypriot existentialist consciousness!

It was drafted in such a way so that it would historically, politically and legally vindicate nearly all of the fait accomplices of the Turkish invasion, ethnic cleansing, occupation, property usurping, TC separatism and the division of Cyprus!

The problem however is that the the other side (Turkish) is the winner of a war.Do you consider it possible they to accept a federation like the one we have in mind or even better a real indepedent state?

My answer is no. They will never do so, therefore if we really want a solution we must reconsider our side's targets.

My point is that any solution which include co-operation of the two communities under the unbrella of a central government will include also very heavy for us rights for the winner of the war.This will guide in a second 1963-1974 condition and which may reasulted a further disaster for the Gcs society.

My point here is that if we really want a permanent and final solution we must clearly have in mind

1.Turks invated by army and occupy a certain area of the Island-This is a result of a war (despite the reasons of the war)
2.There are no signs that the invator will withdraw without to secure rights against the Gcs.
3.The Gcs side has not and for the next 100 years will not have the military power to change the situation.
4.The international community will not accept Tcs to live in no country for long.
5.Gcs must urgently consider the actual facts and circustances and try to convist the invator to keep a much less land against a separate state to be recognised in the North.Of course solution always under the guarantee of the international community.
6.On the present targets of a solution we guide the Cyprus problem to make a second but similar circle like the one 1956-1974.
7.If you are the looser of a war and there are no signs for changes in this regard you must finally accept the circustances and try to minimize the damage-On the way we are going we are taking the risk to loose the whole Island within 15-20 years

so what do u suggest?

I thing item 5 of my post is clear

sorry, didn't take it as such.
How does it feel to be one of the few people on this forum TC and GC to be in complete agreement with VP?

I do not have any coplex to agree or disagree with anyone. I do not have any coplex in order to avoid the real facts even are no good for me.