Cyprus-Forum.com

[EPSILON]

Epsilon is a defeated brain! He or she is demoralized and suffers from a defeatist syndrome, which is why s/he talks in the way s/he does! That is why you are also cheering him /her! You are cheering him /her because he/she better paves the way to your deluded aspirations and aims as a Turk! It so happens that he /she is just a fool that cannot realize why you are cheering him /her!

Imo Epsilon is just a Turk hater who wants a pure Hellenic Cyprus, even if that will mean partition.

Imo again he fails to realize

a)what partition means and what are the long term consequences.
b)What a true Federation would mean in finally bringing justice for both GCs and TCs in the long run
c)That the Gcs have lost a battle, but the Tcs are not in a better situation either, so there is ground for a mutually acceptable Federal solution.

I know very well what Annan plan is and its consequences for Gcs
I know very well that the next plan will be a sister plan of this of Annan
I know that we have G.Papantreou or D.Mpakogianni with Kassoulides to handle the new one
I know that nobody will give as what you said "true federation"-we will get a fake federation giving to minority more rights than the majority and most important for our survival as society the real control of the Island to Turkey.
If Tcs feel that they have been invated by a foreign army why they are staying there and cooperating with the invasion forces?I do not remember someone from Greek side to push them to go North.

[EPSILON]

Epsilon is a defeated brain! He or she is demoralized and suffers from a defeatist syndrome, which is why s/he talks in the way s/he does! That is why you are also cheering him /her! You are cheering him /her because he/she better paves the way to your deluded aspirations and aims as a Turk! It so happens that he /she is just a fool that cannot realize why you are cheering him /her!

Imo Epsilon is just a Turk hater who wants a pure Hellenic Cyprus, even if that will mean partition.

Imo again he fails to realize

a)what partition means and what are the long term consequences.
b)What a true Federation would mean in finally bringing justice for both GCs and TCs in the long run
c)That the Gcs have lost a battle, but the Tcs are not in a better situation either, so there is ground for a mutually acceptable Federal solution.

I know very well what Annan plan is and its consequences for Gcs
I know very well that the next plan will be a sister plan of this of Annan
I know that we have G.Papantreou or D.Mpakogianni with Kassoulides to handle the new one
I know that nobody will give as what you said "true federation"-we will get a fake federation giving to minority more rights than the majority and most important for our survival as society the real control of the Island to Turkey.
If Tcs feel that they have been invated by a foreign army why they are staying there and cooperating with the invasion forces?I do not remember someone from Greek side to push them to go North.

and regarding with point c- maybe we still do not understand that the solution is nt a matter which controlled by Tcs but by Ankara.

[CopperLine]

For what it is worth I really don't think that the US cares two figs what happens to Cyprus so long as a solution does not destabilise the region. It seems to me that the US is agnostic as to a range of federal, bi-communal, even two state solution. The US no longer has any strategic-military interests in Cyprus.

Similarly with the UK, with the exception of the sovereign bases question, the UK no longer has a vested interest in one solution over another.

Both the USA and UK will go with the path of least resistance and the path of least expenditure (which effectively means the status quo, which effectively means that neither will put major effort into re-invigorating the settlement-making process), so long as regional stability (read Syria, Lebanon, eastern Turkey) is not compromised.

[Pyrpolizer]

A couple of contextual paragraphs, then an argument.

I was watching the Ken Loach film Land and Freedom recently, the one set in the Spanish Civil War, and in part following the fight of a Scouse volunteer fighting for the POUM. For many of those fighting in Spain - the agricultural labourers and rural population the control over land was crucial - land was freedom. It got me thinking about Cyprus, land and freedom.

In 1974 Cyprus was essentially an agricultural economy with pockets of artisanal production, and the odd bit of industrial production eg mines. Most people, even if not directly employed on the land, were still strongly connected to the land most often through continuing family associations with the land. For an agriculturally based population whose income and skills are directly drawn from the land to be expelled from the land is next to expulsion from life itself. Perhaps that's too melodramatic, but it approximates the significance of land.


So to the argument : In this thread about the possibilities of a federal solution the thing that came to mind is that land, and ownership of land, and access to land was vital in 1974, and therefore all proposed solutions have seen the land question - who gets what and how much, and with what compensation for lost land, etc - as crucial. It makes sense for an agricultural economy and for those reliant on an agricultural livelihood that land is the property that must be restored. On this crux have hung all peace plans, including discussions of federation.
But if we stop a minute and think about the Cyprus economy in 2007, agriculture is not the mainstay of the economy (north or south). Basically Cyprus is a service economy - it provides tourism, holiday, leisure, gambling, shipping services, educational services, and some offshore. Agriculture and agricultural employment have taken up a steadily smaller and smaller proportion of national income.
So I ask the question does the land question matter to a settlement, especially a federal settlement, in the same way that it did for the past thirty plus years ?

Let's add a further consideration, suppose a settlement is arrived at which addresses the land question. How many Cypriots - either outside Cyprus or within Cyprus, north or south - are going to return to work on the land ?

(I fully anticipate howls of derision from certain quarters at the mere expression of this heretical thought )

Very well said CopperLine. however those services still require land (not for agriculture but for building). It may come as a surprise to you but a building plot (500-600 sq meters) in Nicosia today worths a minimum 200,000 CYP (342,000 Euro). agricultural land is being turned in holiday homes etc even that costs as much per donum.

So yes land is a worthy asset today in Cyprus much more worthy than what it was in the past when we were living from agriculture and mining.

[Kifeas]

A couple of contextual paragraphs, then an argument.

I was watching the Ken Loach film Land and Freedom recently, the one set in the Spanish Civil War, and in part following the fight of a Scouse volunteer fighting for the POUM. For many of those fighting in Spain - the agricultural labourers and rural population the control over land was crucial - land was freedom. It got me thinking about Cyprus, land and freedom.

In 1974 Cyprus was essentially an agricultural economy with pockets of artisanal production, and the odd bit of industrial production eg mines. Most people, even if not directly employed on the land, were still strongly connected to the land most often through continuing family associations with the land. For an agriculturally based population whose income and skills are directly drawn from the land to be expelled from the land is next to expulsion from life itself. Perhaps that's too melodramatic, but it approximates the significance of land.


So to the argument : In this thread about the possibilities of a federal solution the thing that came to mind is that land, and ownership of land, and access to land was vital in 1974, and therefore all proposed solutions have seen the land question - who gets what and how much, and with what compensation for lost land, etc - as crucial. It makes sense for an agricultural economy and for those reliant on an agricultural livelihood that land is the property that must be restored. On this crux have hung all peace plans, including discussions of federation.
But if we stop a minute and think about the Cyprus economy in 2007, agriculture is not the mainstay of the economy (north or south). Basically Cyprus is a service economy - it provides tourism, holiday, leisure, gambling, shipping services, educational services, and some offshore. Agriculture and agricultural employment have taken up a steadily smaller and smaller proportion of national income.
So I ask the question does the land question matter to a settlement, especially a federal settlement, in the same way that it did for the past thirty plus years ?

Let's add a further consideration, suppose a settlement is arrived at which addresses the land question. How many Cypriots - either outside Cyprus or within Cyprus, north or south - are going to return to work on the land ?

(I fully anticipate howls of derision from certain quarters at the mere expression of this heretical thought )

1. The issue of land (territory) is not only relevant or associated with its agricultural use or its economic benefit! It is also relevant or associated with the historical and cultural connection that a people have with it!

2. It depends what content you want to give to the term "federal settlement!" Some monkeys went as far as calling the confederation between two "pre-existing," separate and ethically based and owned "nation-states," that the Annan plan proposed, a “federal settlement!”

[Kifeas]

Respect for what “…be budala!”

hey Kifea, ur turkish is improving like hell..congratulations to ur teacher

[Pyrpolizer]

For what it is worth I really don't think that the US cares two figs what happens to Cyprus so long as a solution does not destabilise the region. It seems to me that the US is agnostic as to a range of federal, bi-communal, even two state solution. The US no longer has any strategic-military interests in Cyprus.

Similarly with the UK, with the exception of the sovereign bases question, the UK no longer has a vested interest in one solution over another.

Both the USA and UK will go with the path of least resistance and the path of least expenditure (which effectively means the status quo, which effectively means that neither will put major effort into re-invigorating the settlement-making process), so long as regional stability (read Syria, Lebanon, eastern Turkey) is not compromised.

I agree with you CopperLine that they don't really have any interests in Cyprus. Any solution we might have here or no solution-they don't care.

Imo however there is one thing they are interested through their involvement in Cyprus. To sell whatever "services" they provide. It is said the Anan Plan was the gift the USA offered to Turkey to have their troops pass thru' in Iraq. Turkey finally refused the passing but... the Anan plan stayed.

[CopperLine]

I take the point about land being used for building purposes (and also the cultural and historical feelings of connection with the land), but would first add that the proper comparator it seems to me is not the admittedly massive increase in the price of building land within Cyprus but the price of building land - especially for hotels, holiday complexes and 'second/holiday/retirement' homes - and associated services compared with Greece, Turkey, the Spanish costas, even Morocco, Florida and so on. Property prices in Cyprus are governed not by agricultural demands or even housing demands for local Cypriots - again this is true north and south - but with competitor holiday and tourism sectors across the Mediterranean and even across the North Atlantic.

Second - and I don't want to tempt fate - even on a relatively small island such as Cyprus most land will remain unused (or unusable) for building purposes. (And if building continues even at the current rate the ecological systems will have collapsed long-before all building land has been used up).

Third, when Pyropolizer mentioned oil earlier in this thread, the land and land holding in Cyprus may have become much less significant than the matter of the extent and shape of the coastline itself. It is from the coastline, not the total area of land under one's control, that exploration and exploitation claims over the seabed are measured. (Having said that I'm still a bit sceptical about all the hoo-ha about oil and gas).

[humanist]

Australia = Federation with an increasing Police State mentality. Do Not be fooled by Johnny.


I'll push for a US Fedral system, if it can manage to bring together 52 States surely we can manage with 2 in Cyprus

[Viewpoint]

Australia = Federation with an increasing Police State mentality. Do Not be fooled by Johnny.


I'll push for a US Fedral system, if it can manage to bring together 52 States surely we can manage with 2 in Cyprus

Not if one state is TC and the other GC with the GC sides main aim is reducing the TCs into just another minority.