Cyprus-Forum.com

[cannedmoose]

So does the airport discussion refer to events before or after a solution is achieved?

The purpose of this thread is to talk about CBM's (that's confidence-building-measures, not continental ballistic missiles) before an ultimate solution Thrill. So the airport discussion started in that vein.

[cannedmoose]

Viewpoint,
It seems you did not get the matter of the ports right. It was an interim proposal in your favour to build confidence until the Cyprus problem is solved. I personally do not agree with that.
But anyway it offered you A) the legality you always wanted on exchange of B) common use under EU supervision. You cannot ask for C) common use of the already legal ports because that will only come on exchange of D) a solution.
For your information your leadership already turned the offer down anyway...

MicAtCyp, regardless of whether the leadership turned it down, it is still worth discussing. The point of this thread is to throw out ideas for discussion by forum members as to what would be mutually acceptable and what wouldn't be.

As for your points in response to Viewpoint, I'd be interested in hearing why you disagree with confidence-building prior to a solution. Ultimately a solution can only come with mutual confidence and it's plain that little of that exists right now. I know the EU does not and has never wanted to get deeply involved in the Cyprus problem, but I don't see any way they can now escape from the trap they set themselves in 1995.

Hence, given the (limited) confidence that both sides have in the EU, what is the objection to getting infrastructure that could ultimately benefit both sides either back into operation or improved to handle more traffic? I know one objection from the GC side would be the economic improvement that such development would spark in the north, following the thesis that improved conditions would reduce the desire for a settlement.

I'm not sure I buy this. Such developments could only serve to spark inter-communal trade beyond the pathetically small levels that it's currently at. Revenues from trade could be dissipated on a proportional basis and employment at these facilities would benefit both communities. The north has a heck of a long way to catch up, I don't see that these measures could reduce that gap in the short or even medium term. For sure it would be to the greater benefit of TC's, but as a magnanimous gesture, a sign of greater co-operation it would be brave. Also, it would reduce the north's dependence on Turkey, which I'm sure would only serve to make the TC's more independent of Turkey's guiding hand.

Thus, co-operation+mutual benefit+European involvement+reduced Turkish influence... surely this is a good recipe for further rapprochement between the two communities?

[MicAtCyp]

Before I even had time to scratch my head this thread got full with suggestions.
Ok heres the only one left.
Put the Turkish Language in GC high schools and the Greek language in TC high schools on an obligatory basis.
They did put it in GC high schools but only as an elective next to French Italian English etc. Guess how many students chose it.

[magikthrill]

Before I even had time to scratch my head this thread got full with suggestions.
Ok heres the only one left.
Put the Turkish Language in GC high schools and the Greek language in TC high schools on an obligatory basis.
They did put it in GC high schools but only as an elective next to French Italian English etc. Guess how many students chose it.

Oh wow, I didn't know that they had Turkish offered as a second language. I am quite surprised.

However, I think it would be better if Turkish is offered at a much younger age, say 3rd grade at around 8 y.o. when the child's brain is still able to pronounce multiple accents. And also, before they're brains get the chance to be polluted with potential propaganda.

[-mikkie2-]

Turkish and Greek should not be an option but a necessity. Both languages need to be taught.

[cannedmoose]

I'm not sure about compulsory teaching of both languages, somehow I don't think that would go down well. However, I agree with Thrill's point that the option to learn should be given at an early stage, with some incentive for doing so (not quite sure what incentives could be offered, open to suggestions folks... maybe free chocolate would do it!)

I think in the end, English will be the language that facilitates communication between the people on both sides, and it's one of the great advantages that Cyprus possesses in Europe. Since most people are able to get by in English, the opportunities for Cypriots in the European arena are greatly enhanced and something that the island could well capitalise upon.

[Nickp]

Hey Candemoose,

I’m really impressed with the summary of everyone’s point’s you’ve made. It’s really impressive, it seems like were making really good constructive progress.

Like Viewpoint suggested earlier, even though the good will of the people could implement these points, politicians bicker and will not do anything unless there is political gain.

I’d just like to add to this by just making our own progress that people may like to take on board.

In relations to point 5

5)Nickp: Concerted steps by the authorities of both sides to identify the sites where the remaining ‘missing’ are buried – this would go a long way.

I’ve heard a rumour that there’s suppose to be a mass grave under the ‘Maroni’ river in the south near to the Turkish village of ‘Tochni.’ Should TC’s want to take on this information and lobby it to their administration to check it out, I wish them luck.


In relation to point 9

9) Nickp: Allow TCs to immediately reclaim land in the south that is currently unoccupied.

Again, I’ve noticed a lot of Turkish villages in the South are only semi-full, hence I would imagine a lot TC’s could return to their property or land or even more so take advantage of it commercially should they wish. Therefore, making business interests in the south. For example, the mosque in Kophinou is in good condition as the GC’s look after it and villages like Kato Lefkara only have a few people in them. I think the fact there is a Turkish community of a few hundred in Limmassol living in peace among thousands of GC’s is a sign that’s it’s safe to return.


In relation to Point 18

18 ) Piratis: Change the RoC national anthem to a Cypriot song, not tied to the Greek national anthem.

I agree to this, I was confused when I first heard the Cyprus national anthem when I was young as it was the same as Greece’s!!! What did they have in 1960 for a national anthem?

Anyway, there’s one song that I would love to make the Cyprus national anthem as I think it’s enlightening and carries the spirit of the island. The beauty of it, it has no words and furthermore it’s kind of similar in a sense to the European national anthem.
However, some people may find it daft as it’s traditionally a wedding song.

The song is called ’Kozan’ it’s a TC song but the GC’s have adopted it as there own as they always play it at weddings.

There’s a fantastic orchestrated version at the following link that I think would be perfect. Tell me if I’m being stupid though, I just may like the tune too much!

http://www.geocities.com/ahmetakarsu/Audios/Kozan.mp3

Note: it’s an MP3 so give a chance to download, and if anyone is interested I have the full length version which is more sophisticated.

In relation to point 21.

21) Piratis: Send a Turkish song to Eurovision

I think it’s a fantastic idea to do a duet, as a lot of the best Greek songs are typically a duet with an Arabic singer. Particularly one recent one which is my favourite, Greek title - “Se Bera Sovara” singer (DIVA). It was an Arabic song, but as always the Greeks always steal the best one’s.

But maybe everyone will start to complain once Turkey/Greece starts to gives us 12 points year after year.

[MicAtCyp]

I'd be interested in hearing why you disagree with confidence - building prior to a solution

Who said I disagree with confidence - building? I disagree on the matter of seaports and airports. Being under the EU will not change a thing regarding the illegality of the place they are going to serve, the illegality of hosting tourists in stolen hotels, villas, etc the illgality of 120K settlers using stolen land to produce and export etc etc etc
I don't rembember if it is you or someone else who implied that being under EU control will legalise everything - whoever wrote it though, that was a foxy and misleading statement.

I know one objection from the GC side would be the economic improvement that such development would spark in the north, following the thesis that improved conditions would reduce the desire for a settlement. I'm not sure I buy this.

All the arguments you mentioned in support of why you don't buy this are questionable. The only argument which is not questionable is that the TCs simply want a solution for it's economic benefits. Go there ask them if you don't beleive. There is plenty of evidence in this forum too. Give them the economic benefits they now lack and kiss the solution goodbye. And there is no other way to force them to a solution other than that. They have the military power behind them, they have the land in their hands, these are their cards. Our only card is economic. If we throw that away we are finished simple as that. They know it, we know it, lets play fair.

Turkcyp quite correctly spoted the problem although by overgeneralising he got out of track. Some of the measures proposed here (as for example the matter of ports and airports) are going to have no other effect other than cement partition.

[insan]

All the arguments you mentioned in support of why you don't buy this are questionable. The only argument which is not questionable is that the TCs simply want a solution for it's economic benefits. Go there ask them if you don't beleive. There is plenty of evidence in this forum too. Give them the economic benefits they now lack and kiss the solution goodbye. And there is no other way to force them to a solution other than that. They have the military power behind them, they have the land in their hands, these are their cards. Our only card is economic. If we throw that away we are finished simple as that. They know it, we know it, lets play fair.

The despicable story of the defato-richman how to force the poor girl "prostitution" or "marriage". If the GCs who think like MicAtCyp constitute the majority among GC community; I'm sure a solution will never be possible. And in case of a forced settlement, won't last long. Either the girl will escape once again or be killed by mean rascal.

[cannedmoose]

Who said I disagree with confidence - building? I disagree on the matter of seaports and airports. Being under the EU will not change a thing regarding the illegality of the place they are going to serve, the illegality of hosting tourists in stolen hotels, villas, etc the illgality of 120K settlers using stolen land to produce and export etc etc etc
I don't rembember if it is you or someone else who implied that being under EU control will legalise everything - whoever wrote it though, that was a foxy and misleading statement.

MicAtCyp, firstly to get it out of the way, I did not imply that EU control would 'legalise everything', I believe that was another poster.

The fact is that even without direct trade, tourists are now free (largely because the RoC cannot arrest EU citizens en masse) to fly into Larnaca, cross the Green Line and stay in the north for the duration of their holidays. Thus, flying into Ercan is no longer a prerequisite for a northern holiday. The longer this situation remains, the more I think that you'll see tour operators in the UK and elsewhere offering packages involving a transfer from Larnaca northwards.

As for the ports issue, yes it would aid the TCs economically, in the process making them more self-sufficient. But at the end of the day, exports from the north are going to be small beer, all estimates say that the only desirable exports would be citrus products (valued at about €50m a year), that's hardly an economic renaissance. The opposition of the GC authorities to these suggestions also serves to drive perceptions amongst EU partners and others that in reality it is an economic blockade of the north, designed to impoverish the population and blackmail it into submission - a form of 'economic apartheid by design' if you want. That may not be the reality of the situation, but the more vociferous the disagreement by GCs, the more it appears to others to be so.

All the arguments you mentioned in support of why you don't buy this are questionable. The only argument which is not questionable is that the TCs simply want a solution for it's economic benefits. Go there ask them if you don't beleive. There is plenty of evidence in this forum too. Give them the economic benefits they now lack and kiss the solution goodbye. And there is no other way to force them to a solution other than that. They have the military power behind them, they have the land in their hands, these are their cards. Our only card is economic. If we throw that away we are finished simple as that. They know it, we know it, lets play fair.

Ultimately, they don't have all the cards. As others have rightly said, the RoC has numerous opportunities available to lead EU opinion on this matter. By assuming the upper hand and taking magnanimous steps towards the TCs, the RoC could become an opinion driver within the EU rather than a lonely voice shouting abuse from the sidelines.

I agree with you that we don't want the TRNC as a Mediterranean Taiwan, the way to avoid this is as follows. GC authorities should apply for the opening of the ports and airports in the north (under their recognised sovereignty, if anything this enhances the claim to the north rather than undermining it). This should be announced as a step to improve the conditions of the TC people and as a first step towards further integration between the two parts of the island. Such a step would show the willingness of the RoC to engage with the north and would do a great deal to improve the image of the RoC amongst the international community. If anything, it would also result in increased pressure upon Turkey and the TC authorities to return to the negotiating table.

As for EU involvement, I see this as necessary to not only ensure that the two sides co-operate and to report on any difficulties that arise, but also to assist with the training of officials, with the development of joint legislation to ensure compatibility with EU rules. The EU has access to expertise that would be to the benefit of both communities and it should be used.

The rights and wrongs of use of settled land, use of settler labour etc., the simple fact remains that in any solution, a large number of settlers will be given leave to remain permanently, therefore they will become Cypriot citizens with all the rights that this entails. Also, the likelihood is that much of the land they are currently working will remain under TC jurisdiction. Ultimately some of the tax revenue accruing from this will be returned to a federal administration and will thus benefit all. I know it's a hard pill to swallow and an extremely distasteful one for GCs, but partition is already solidified, probably the only political solution will involve a lessening of the de facto partition and establishment of a loose federation. Then the real efforts at finding a solution can begin with the reinteraction of the two societies.