Cyprus-Forum.com

[cannedmoose]

Hello again folks, I'd like to thank all those who have contributed to this so far, it's been a really interesting discussion with some excellent points made. In particular I'd like to thank Piratis for his contribution. Re, I may have differences with you, but I read with interest what you wrote and greatly appreciate the points that you made, they were well-put and well thought out.

Arse-kissing over with, there's be a good number of suggestions made, so let's just summarise all the points made so far by the various contributors. Where possible I've put the persons nickname at the beginning of each point to credit their suggestion, if I miss anyone I apologise in advance. Also, if I've misquoted, please feel free to correct me and I will edit this summary post. Where the point has so far been disputed, I've also made note of that. Where I make a further point, I have put this in brackets below the original.

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Points so far:

1) Nickp: Opening of Varosha to mutual benefit of both GC and TCs.

(A problem is that Varosha is largely derelict and will need a massive capital injection to make it both safe and habitable – in the spirit of conciliation, should not both sides request investment from the EU to clear up and begin the rebuilding process?)

2) Nickp/Piratis: Removal of the propaganda flags on Pendedactylos – inflammatory to GC opinion, easy to implement quickly.

(The flags and writing could even be replaced with a dove of peace which may be problematic due to its association with the RoC flag alternatively a moufflon symbol given its indigenous character, in the process becoming a bit of a tourist attraction. Why not make the area a ‘peace park’ where people are free to visit and picnic, I’m sure the views are great from there).

3) Nickp/Insan/Mikkie2: sizeable number of Turkish troops should leave the island, approximately 5,000. Of the total force this is a significant number, yet still leaves a garrison more than equipped to make TCs feel secure.

(A further suggestion is that a sizeable portion of the heavy weapons deployed on the island could be removed by Turkey, in return for the decommissioning of a proportion of the RoC’s heavy weapons (such as tanks, heavy artillery).

4) Nickp/Piratis: No further sale of land formerly occupied by GC’s pre-1974 that is currently empty should be permitted for sale.

5)Nickp: Concerted steps by the authorities of both sides to identify the sites where the remaining ‘missing’ are buried – this would go a long way.

6) Nickp/Mikkie2, Saint Jimmy opposed: GC should apply to the ICAO for a licence to open Tymvou/Ercan to international air traffic.

(The customs stations could be run by a joint GC/TC group of officials, with TC officials also welcome at Larnaca and Paphos airports, with EU officials also invited to participate. The airport could be linked to a new crossing point east of Nicosia to allow for easy access by GCs to the facility.)

7) Nickp/Mikkie2, Saint Jimmy opposed: GC should also apply for the opening of Famagusta port to international trade, with TC produce able to leave directly for Europe and elsewhere.

(Again, the port should be stationed by a joint force of GC and TC customs officials, with TC officials invited to be stationed at Larnaka and Lemessos ports also. I would also suggest that EU officials could be invited to be stationed at these ports to assist with the training of both sides).

8 ) Nickp: Establishment of a TC administration within the government to assist TCs.

(In the same vein it would also be better if the EU representation of the RoC included a greater number of TCs, currently to my knowledge there is only one).

9) Nickp: Allow TCs to immediately reclaim land in the south that is currently unoccupied.

10) Nickp: Removal of Greek flags from all buildings, with the RoC and EU flags the only flags permitted to be flown.

(This could be difficult to implement because many private houses also fly the Greek flag, however a by-law could be implemented to prevent the flying of any flag on a street fronted by a main road. Similarly, TC flags could be flown, but Turkish flags should be removed from all public buildings in the north and discouraged from being flown in private properties).

11) Insan/Piratis: Establishment of a joint commission of GC and TC, plus a number of eminent external historians, sociologists, psychologists and researchers to discuss the history of Cyprus in order to enlighten Cypriots about the facts, myths, prejudices and the negative affects of these, on their bi-communal relations. This commission to rewrite history books of both sides to better reflect events and recognise crimes committed by both communities.

12) Insan: Acceptance by the TC authorities that some land (percentage suggested was 9%, reducing the TCCS to 28%) needs to be returned to the GC authorities

(The offer could constitute a phased plan to return land at yearly intervals over a five-year period. During the year, a withdrawal of forces and demining activity would occur, with the UNFICYP forces taking possession of the territory 3 months prior to handover to ensure that this has taken place. At the end of the 3 month period, the UNFICYP troops would deploy into small bases along the frontier to ensure continued compliance and monitor violations by either side).

13) Insan: Establishment of bi-communal clubs, easily and freely accessible to all from both sides to encourage sport, socialisation and discussion between the two communities.

14) Insan/Piratis: Inviting GC administration to form a bi-communal properties board to facilitate property exchanges, sales, renting and return to land that is empty.

15) Insan: Temporary residence and establishment of holiday properties, with continuing political rights in their respective CS will be unlimited for both communities. Permanent residence with full political rights will be limited to 33% of the number of the established community in each constituent state.

16) Insan: Establishment of free trade between the two communities, without border restrictions.

17) Insan: A reduction in the numbers of GC national guard forces and Greek forces.

(This could be done through a reduction in the length of GC national service to 18 months with a similar reduction taking place in the length of service required for TCs in their force. I would also suggest the mothballing of some heavy weapons such as AMX tanks and heavy artillery units. Though these would still obviously be available in a crisis, the sight of these units removed from deployment into depots patrolled by UNFICYP units would be significant).

18 ) Piratis: Change the RoC national anthem to a Cypriot song, not tied to the Greek national anthem.

(Any good suggestions folks? Joke songs are welcomed but please accompany any suggestions with a proper one. Links to mp3s would also be welcome).

19) Piratis: Establishment of TC schools in all major cities.

(With Greek schools also permitted in TC towns. Further to this, why not provide an option for students on both sides to learn Turkish, Greek and English. This could be further facilitated through a teacher exchange programme for language teachers from both communities)

21) Piratis: Send a Turkish song to Eurovision

(Why not a Greek/Turkish song, it’s been done before outside of Eurovision, a duet between TC and GC would be great, the music sounds similar after all and with the sympathy vote, I place bets now that it would win).

22) Piratis: Rename all roads name after Grivas

(This could also extend to roads in the north. A bi-communal commission could be established to discuss the naming of new roads and the renaming of some particularly sensitive ones such as Grivas or Ataturk for example).

23) Piratis: The removal of instructed religion from schools

(I think this is a great suggestion. Given Turkey's highly secular nature and the even greater secularity displayed by TCs, I’m not certain if this happens in the north, please let me know folks. Instead, students should be provided with a general religious education that covers a wide variety of faiths, not instruction in Orthodoxy alone).

24) Piratis: Cease attempts for recognition for the TRNC, accepting that the territory is part of Cyprus and wishes to be reunited in a bicommunal, bizonal entity with equal rights for all citizens.

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So, with these 24 points, I think we have further room for discussion on this. If anyone has further points, please make them known and we can add them to this list. For now, if we can make further comments on these points, we can work towards establishing a 30-point list for further debate in a separate thread (and possibly vote on these also). I'd particularly welcome further input from the TC element of this forum, so far it's largely been from the GC crowd.

Again, well done all, thanks for the constructive nature of this debate, let's keep it good (and clean).

Thanks,

Cm

[cannedmoose]

the one that was painted on the side of a tall building in the south to counter the one in the north.

I always thought the Greek flag was painted as a result of a lost bet on the Greek victory in Euro 2004 (the owner of the building said he would paint the flag if Greece won, never thinking they would), not as a political response - maybe my version is just the urban legend! Nonetheless, it does have a political connotation and thus should come under the 'no Greek flag' statement made by other posters.

[magikthrill]

Although I unconditionally agree with the issue of teahing religion in schools, do you think it will be accepted by mainstream GC society? I know if this were to happen in Greece it would be defended as religion is part of Greek culture...

[metecyp]

point number 2, what if the seller has disappeared? who will pay the foreigner and will GC owner get to keep the new villa or do we demolish it? what if the seller had exchanged land in the south worth more than the land in the north??? more complicated than get the seller to pay up.

These are details (important though) that will be handled by a properties commission. As Nick pointed out, there are many confidence building measures that can be implemented right now without getting trapped in the details of an overall solution.

For example, I don't know why Varosha cannot be given back to GCs in return of Famagusta port opening for trade under the control of EU. We can also ask a good percentage of reconstruction in Varosha to be implemented by TC workers. This will give Varosha back to GCs, give TCs a legal port while not upsetting GCs (since the port will be under the control of EU) and create jobs for TC workers.

Secondly, instead of talking about making Ercan airport legal, why don't we open the old airport in Nicosia, again under the control of EU/UN? If the airport is under the control of the EU, nobody can complain. TCs cannot complain that there're being forced into the RoC, GCs cannot complain that it's illegal.

Third, create a bicommunal sports federation (composed of the RoC soccer, basketball, etc. federations and TC soccer, basketball, etc. federations). Then, this federation sets up bicommunal soccer, basketball etc. leagues. This will improve the relations between TCs and GCs and TCs can finally start participating in international events.

Four, TC and GC historians come together and write a neutral Cyprus history book to be used both in the north and the south. Open more GC schools in Karpasia and TC schools in the south (eg. Limassol). Set up a bicommunal school in the buffer zone with TC/GC teachers and TC/GC students. Education is in English along with Greek and Turkish so all students will be trilingual when they come out of school.

And the list goes on....As you can see my friends, there're many things that can be done before a comprehensive solution that will change ordinary people's lives. Unfortunately, I don't think that any of these are possible with current politicians. All they like to talk about is the legality of the RoC, the illegality of the TRNC and the EHRC and so on. I believe that these can be possible if dedicated citizens like us get organized and make it happen.

[turkcyp]

Waste of time!

Confidence building measures are good in theory but it is too late for that. We can not spend another 10 years trying to build confidence among each other. Everyday we spent without a solution will be deepening partition.

Any confidence building measures should be implemented only as a part of a bigger plan. Otherwise I can point you out 10 different confidence building measures that that will get us nowhere but partition.

And small gestures like removing the flags on mountains or on polls, or putting a Turkish song into Eurovision are nothing more that self-deception. It does not go anywhere further than temporary satisfaction by means of self-gratification.

Here we go I will offer you some real confidence building measures which serves nothing but helping the partition if implemented outside a comprehensive solution.

a) Let all the refugees to turn back to their properties with full political rights in the north: If this is implemented outside the comprehensive solution, all it does is clean the human rights violations against GCs. But how can you do this without a comprehensive solution, you can do it by giving them TRNC citizenship with full rights. Then this only helps partition.

b) Another measure: Get rid of all the Turkish army. What will this do without a comprehensive solution. It will cause more bloodshed, which defiantly cause partition or cement partition without bloodshed. Bloodshed because at the removal of Turkish army, RoC will do one of two things: a) either try to exert its control over the whole island, and will cause killing with the portions of the TC society that does not want to be under its command. Or will let things control the way they are right now, which cements the partition further.

c) Here you go another proposal: Let RoC turn back to normality with full constitutional rights of TCs from 1960 constitution. All this does is again cement partition. Those who were happy with 1960 agreement (like me) may turn back to south and start participating the RoC, those who does not like it stays in north and make TRNC more feasible with a huge resentment even for its own ethnicity.

In short to summarize it,

Any confidence building measures performed outside the context of comprehensive solution at this portion of the game will only deepen partition on the island, by making people understand that we can live peacefully side by side instead of living in a environment full of tension but integrated.

A GC will become nothing more than a foreign tourist in the eyes of TC, and vice verse, instead of a co-partner that you are in a dispute that has to be solved to gain forward momentum.

[insan]

And also thanks to you, cannedmosse for bringing everyone's views together by improving them into a better form.

Although you suggested two names, as an example to be removed from the street names; I don't think Ataturk can be equated with Grivas just like Ioannis Capodistrias cannot be equated with Grivas by any means. In conclusion, even seeing Ataturk's name being suggested to be removed from the streets in the North, disturbed me so much. I know that there's a law, passed recently in GC parliament that describes Ataturk as the saughterer of Pontian Greeks.


Ps: Anyone who needs to reply their views about this issue, please open a new thread. I just wanted to point my view about it.

[metecyp]

Any confidence building measures performed outside the context of comprehensive solution at this portion of the game will only deepen partition on the island, by making people understand that we can live peacefully side by side instead of living in a environment full of tension but integrated.

I totally disagree. You're right that nothing can replace a comprehensive solution but we have been waiting for this comprehensive solution for 40 years now. Let's look at just the past year. Since the referandum last April, what has been done for a solution? Nothing! Not one side had the political will to open another gate in Morphou area. I don't think that we can sit and do nothing and expect that a comprehensive solution will solve all our problems. Our politicians can still talk about the Annan plan, the return back to the RoC plan or a Banana plan, whatever. But this doesn't mean that things cannot be done to make everyone's lives better. Wasn't opening of borders a good move? What if someone like you said that "We cannot open borders before a comprehensive solution because it only deepends partition"? Doesn't this sound ridicilous, sure it does to me.

[metecyp]

Although you suggested two names, as an example to be removed from the street names; I don't think Ataturk can be equated with Grivas just like Ioannis Capodistrias cannot be equated with Grivas by any means. In conclusion, even seeing Ataturk's name being suggested to be removed from the streets in the North, disturbed me so much

I understand why this disturbed you, insan and it disturbed me as well but this is exactly the problem. We perceive Grivas as a terrorist who brought nothing but misery to Cyprus, on the other hand, I'm sure there're people who consider him a freedom-fighter and hero. I love Ataturk and his ideals but there're Turks, let alone Greeks/GCs, who consider Ataturk as God-less drunk who tried to eradicate Islam from Turkey.

As you can see, even in a simple matter like naming the streets, we end up in a political discussion about who is what. What I suggest is to stay away from politics. Let's name our streets to names of flowers, for example. This might sound stupid but nobody will object to live in a Daisy Street, Rose Street, or Tulip street, right? Maybe we can ask street residents to rename their own street. Or maybe we can use Manhattan style street numbering, 1st street, 34th avenue etc.

The point is we can stay away from politics and avoid unnecessary discussions if we want to.

[michalis5354]

I would like to see the Old politicians of both sides being replaced by New and younger ones who are more willing to see things in a different perspective and are more likely to introduce and bring CHANGE !

[insan]

I agree with metecyp. Anything that will help to increase the confidence and hapiness between two communities without harming TCs communal cause, is welcomed. Anything that will serve the traps of GC leadership to degrade TCs into a minority status should be unacceptable.