Cyprus-Forum.com

[-mikkie2-]

You only partly answered my question, will the same be applicable to ports and airports in the south???

If not then how is this fair, you jointly run Famagusta and Ercan and we have no say in Larnaca or Limassol.

Sound fair to you???

The RoC is the legal, internationally recognised state of Cyprus. Its ports of entry are already governed by international agreements and law. The northern part of Cyprus is deemed occupied territory and the RoC is the only legal body that can allow the ports of entry to operate. And in actual fact, the RoC offered the use of Larnaca port by TC's but you just cast it aside. This issue is not about obataining political gains at the expense of the GC's. It is about trying to better the standard of living of TC's.

[Piratis]

1. Five bullet points of a couple of sentences max, of concrete, realistic steps that your side should take to encourage confidence from the other.

1) Re-write the history books. People should be more educated regarding the 63-68 period.

2) Change the national anthem

3) Open TC schools in all cities.

4) Be more flexible with TCs reclaiming their properties. Each case should be examined separately. If the particular TC doesn't illegally occupy a GC property then he should be given his property back.

5) Send a song in Turkish language to Eurovision.

6) Rename all roads that are currently named after Grivas

7) Remove religion as a required course in schools. (just general religion courses about all religions should be required)

A further five bullet points of a couple of sentences max, of concrete, realistic steps that you would like to see from the other side in order to build your confidence.

1) Stop any attempt for recognition of "TRNC".

2) Re-write of history books. References to "peace operation" and justified occupation should be removed.

3) Step down their demands regarding the solution so nobody will have to be punished even more because of "realities".

4) Removal of the "TRNC" flag from Pentadaktilos

5) Stop the sales of GC property

6) Accept and improve the measures that RoC provided for trade, instead of insisting on measures that have more to do with political rather than financial gains.

[Saint Jimmy]

Jimmy, in my opinion economic sanctions that imposed upon TC community have worsened the circumstances of the solution to Cyprus problem. And it keeps worsening...

Insan, could you please elaborate on this? I don't understand how the sanctions have worsened the circumstances of the solution to the problem from the TC side. I mean, if anything, it should make the TCs realize that once the problem has been solved, the sanctions will no longer exist...? I understand the complexity of the attitude of resistance, but it's only negative reinforcement - Psychology-101

Moreover if GC community doesn't trust TC community; why should TC community trust to GC community.

Furthermore suppose world has recognized "RoC" and "TRNC" as GC administartion and TC administartion with no economic sanctions being imposed. Does that mean reunification would be impossible?

I don't know if that's what it means; but it's what I think it means
By the way, I think we all know that when personal, or in this case, communal, interests get in the way, 'trust', 'vision' and other noble feelings tend to fly out of the nearest windows... If neither community has something to gain from re-unification, it becomes a utopian dream.
What I'm saying is that right now, GCs have something to gain (partially regaining what they lost, and partially undoing the wrongs that have been done by Turkey), and TCs have something to gain (ending international isolation, political equality, direct trade with the rest of the world). With nickp's proposal, TCs gain what they have to gain from a solution, while GCs don't (right?). So, only one side has real incentives to work for a solution, in such a case!

I think you are not aware that the countries under sanctions hoe become destructive "evils" one by one. In which part of the world the sanctions gave expected results. If you think that "RoC" will weaken TC community with sanctions in order to impose its will upon TC community; you are making a fatal mistake.

I'm not making the fatal mistake you think I'm making, that's for sure!
I'm not saying that TCs should be stuck with the sanctions so that they'll suffer, in order for GCs to gain more at their expense.
I'm saying TCs should get stuck with the sanctions so that they don't become disoriented by the enthusiasm that lifting them would bring; do you not see the TCs' attitude after such a step? I'm guessing it will be something like the feeling of being King of the World (I hope you understand what I'm saying; I'm not being sarcastic, by any means).

TCs lost everything they own 1963-74 period because of the GC tyranny. They continue to lose because of the economic sanctions. We also seek justice not only GC refugees.

Yes, this is exactly why I put the word justice in inverted commas.
I'm not talking about the true meaning of the word justice; I know that both sides have suffered injustice.
What I'm saying is that GCs lost what they actually had, tangible, real things that they took (and still do?) for granted! Whereas, TCs were somewhat (...what's the word...) 'compensated' (?) for what they'd been through, by means of Turkey's interference. Do you see? GCs don't need any more incentive to look for a solution: they have been, and still are being, screwed (pardon my french )! Whereas, TCs are only in for it because the current status-quo favors everyone but them... If it does favor them, by lifting sanctions, why would they work for a solution, or even accept one?

TCs had equality status both under British Rule and RoC and shoul have it in united cyprus.

Hmmm... I don't know about their status under British rule, but under the 1960 Constitution, I thought they only got local autonomy, percentage representation in government, army, police, as well as veto rights on several presidential decisions. Can this be defined as political equality? I thought the operant word in the term was 'equality', as in 50-50...

Did GCs had a seperate state?

Well... Not rightly, no! But, after what has been exhaustively debated in this forum, and described as either 'you left!' or 'you kicked us out!', GCs were the only effective government in the island, right? And, they believed that they were rightfully the only government. Which means, well, they had the entire island (at least in their heads), and they lost half of it! That's why I argue that simply getting some back is motivation enough for GCs...

[Saint Jimmy]

Piratis, before I comment on anything, I must admit that I am rather impressed by the genious and originality of most of your suggestions. I guess it only goes to show what stereotyping can do...

1) Re-write the history books. People should be more educated regarding the 63-68 period.

Excellent idea, totally agreed.

2) Change the national anthem

Another great idea that finds me completely agreed. Do you not think that it would face enormous opposition, just like the 'flag and anthem' competition that was procured for the A-Plan? I can just see all hell breaking loose if such a measure is ever announced...

3) Open TC schools in all cities.

Agreed again.

4) Be more flexible with TCs reclaiming their properties. Each case should be examined separately. If the particular TC doesn't illegally occupy a GC property then he should be given his property back.

Yes, once more.

5) Send a song in Turkish language to Eurovision.

This one impressed me the most - excellent idea (although I see hell's gates opening once again )

6) Rename all roads that are currently named after Grivas

Such an obvious one - are we blind or something?

7) Remove religion as a required course in schools. (just general religion courses about all religions should be required)

This one, I didn't get... How would that foster reconciliation?
How about, instead, we just teach the Muslim religion in the TC schools you mentioned above?

As for your suggestions about the TCs, I find them rather far-fetched, overall, not all of them. But I figure a TC would be better qualified to comment on them.

[Viewpoint]

[/quote]-mikkie2-
The RoC is the legal, internationally recognised state of Cyprus. Its ports of entry are already governed by international agreements and law. The northern part of Cyprus is deemed occupied territory and the RoC is the only legal body that can allow the ports of entry to operate. And in actual fact, the RoC offered the use of Larnaca port by TC's but you just cast it aside. This issue is not about obataining political gains at the expense of the GC's. It is about trying to better the standard of living of TC's.[/quote]

So because the south can only authorise use of ports and airports in the north we have to have the EU oversee everything until forever??(i personally could agree to this) we have to share Famagusta Port and not Larnaca Port. Having use of a port is one thing and actually jointly running one is completly another. Dont you feel that a little unfair you run every port and airport in the south and share the ones in the north.

Why dont we just wreck all the taboos and run all airports and ports together ....

[insan]

If neither community has something to gain from re-unification, it becomes a utopian dream.

If the economic sanctions have been lifted, there would still be many incentive things to gain for both communities. Essentially we are looking for a genuine reunification that first of all will unite hearts, brains and souls of vast majority of two communities. However what "RoC" and majority of GCs offer us is a kind of "forced prostitution" or "forced marriage" without a sincere love and respect. I don't think vasy majority of TCs would accept such things you are offering, but you are free to keep insisting on them.


I didn't reply the other parts of your post because many times I put forward my knowledge and opinions about them so sorry about it Jimmy because I fed up repeating the same things times and times again.

[Agios Amvrosios]

I will tell you what my rampage proved........how far apart the two sides are.

All it took was about half a dozen newspaper clippings and the proverbial hit the fan.

All I want is:
(1) to know where my uncles(Mum's brothers) are buried( I think they are buried in Turkey, if they are dead, because my mums cousins were in Turkey with them for about 3 months;
(2) and to be allowed to go to my house and enjoy democratic rights.

I don't want to compromise anyone's rights but why should my family bear the burden of any mistreatment of TCs. I mean when my family goes their homeland they have to stay in hotels when they hold legal title to millions worth of real estate in the Occupied areas.

We want restitution- no amount of compensation can replace the loss of identity created by ethnic cleansing. In any case we don't need money. We rebuilt wealth from scratch. My dad sold his watch and my mother's jewellery and bought one way tickets to Oz. We shared a small house with 3 other families so 14 people lived together like sardines. We grew up wearing second hand clothing. My older brother and sisters and I took contracts cleaning toilets and factories at the age of 13 until I went to Uni. We had to work like animals to regain some dignity. My parents worked two and sometimes three jobs until they could establish their businesses and properties.

My parents did nothing to nobody- so why should my family cop it?My mum and dad said that they only ever met a handful of TC's before coming to Oz and that they actually met more here in Oz.

I don't think you guys(TC's) want true reunfication- you guys just want all the benefits of reunification with none of the disadvantages.

[magikthrill]

I think that Eurovision idea is really great. I was actualy thinking about this last night.

Why shouldn't TCs be allowed to tryout for the contest?

And it really shouldn't matter since people will be voting for "Cyprus" and not the "RoC."

I wonder how Turkey would react to this though?

[insan]

Hi Agios Amvrosios,

I don't think you guys(TC's) want true reunfication- you guys just want all the benefits of reunification with none of the disadvantages.

What majority of TCs trying to do is achieveing the most feasible and rational under the present circumstances. I can understand your pain the things that hurt you. But please a bit empathy, you too should understand the pain of TCs if no permenant restrictions is put, if no "political equality" it has...

Give peace a chance to grow and prepare the circumstances of your rightful aspirations for your children and grand children.

We are trying to sow the seeds of reunification under the circumstances of a "desert".

Regards

[erolz]

I will tell you what my rampage proved........how far apart the two sides are.

It needed you to go on a 'rampage' to prove that two sides have failed to come to an agreement for over 40 years, despite all the 'efforts' to do so in that time are far apart? Surely that was already pretty self evident?

All it took was about half a dozen newspaper clippings and the proverbial hit the fan.

All it took was a half dozen + newspaper clippings to show that whilst it takes effort and consideration from many to build a site like this it takes only one person intent on destruction to undermine damage and destroy it.

All I want is:
(1) to know where my uncles(Mum's brothers) are buried( I think they are buried in Turkey, if they are dead, because my mums cousins were in Turkey with them for about 3 months;

As my family would like to know where my uncle's remains are burried (let alone see some justice served to those that murdered him for no other reason than the fact that he was a TC and a 'moderate'). I want you to know the where abouts of your missing, no more and no less than I want the same for my family.

(2) and to be allowed to go to my house and enjoy democratic rights.

As I want the TC community to be allowed to enjoy it's democratic rights as a partner community in Cyprus. If we can accomdate both the great. If there has to be some compromise then let it be compromise from both sides.

I don't want to compromise anyone's rights but why should my family bear the burden of any mistreatment of TCs. I mean when my family goes their homeland they have to stay in hotels when they hold legal title to millions worth of real estate in the Occupied areas.

As I have no desire to compromise anyone elses rights. However I also do not wish to compromise (alone) my or my communites rights.

We want restitution- no amount of compensation can replace the loss of identity created by ethnic cleansing.

Just as no amount of money can compensate for the loss of my uncle to my aunt, created by a form of ethnic cleasing (he was killed because of his ethnicity by another ethnic group) in 64. The only difference is there is possibility of my dead uncle being resurected and also no talk even of monetary compensation. We have to understand that many Cypriots have lost much (and much more than property) on both sides and for a lot longer than just the events of 74.

In any case we don't need money. We rebuilt wealth from scratch. My dad sold his watch and my mother's jewellery and bought one way tickets to Oz. We shared a small house with 3 other families so 14 people lived together like sardines. We grew up wearing second hand clothing. My older brother and sisters and I took contracts cleaning toilets and factories at the age of 13 until I went to Uni. We had to work like animals to regain some dignity. My parents worked two and sometimes three jobs until they could establish their businesses and properties.

Just as my father left Cyprus in 58 with 'nothing' and went on through hard work and personal sacrafice to build up a susbstancial business and wealth. My family has no need of moneatry compensation but some acknowledgment of their loss would be welcome. Sometimes it feels like it is only the loss of property that matters (a point I have touched on before)

My parents did nothing to nobody- so why should my family cop it?My mum and dad said that they only ever met a handful of TC's before coming to Oz and that they actually met more here in Oz.

And my parents did nothing to nobody either, yet they 'copped it' with much more than the loss of property but with the loss of a friend and brother in law to my father and the loss of a father to my 3 cousins - all 10 years before Turkish action in Cyprus.

I don't think you guys(TC's) want true reunfication- you guys just want all the benefits of reunification with none of the disadvantages.

Actually, despite what you may think, the majority of TC want no more (and no less) than you yourself want. To be treated fairly and with respect in their own homeland and to have an acceptance of their right as an equal community in their own homeland.

Anyway welcome to the forums AA. I look forward to futurte discussions with you in the future and hope that we can both gain something from such discussions. I am happy to 'leave behind' your previous behaviour on these forums if you are able to do the same.

Oh and Piratis I also have to congratulate you on your posts here. A most welcome contribtuion.