Cyprus-Forum.com

[Kifeas]

Turkey dont give a shit about joining the EU as long as the world believes they are on the EU path the foreign investment will continue...

Unless there is a total and a complete change of attitute, soon it won't be on an "EU path" either!

[Nikitas]

VP,

"Turkey does not give a shit about joining the EU...." etc.

A cynical way of seeing things and very mainland Turkish. A Cypriot would not have the cynicism to see things that way, at least that is what I like to believe.

[Nikitas]

Maybe this idea belongs to a new thread, but I will chance it here.

I note from this thread and past threads retrieved from the forum archives that there has never been any discussion of a military solution to the Cyprus problem. Probably the avoidance of the discussion is based on an assumption shared by all in here that Turkey is just too powerful, and Cyprus just too small and weak for such an eventuality to occur.

The thing with military technology is that it only takes a small change to cancel out the advantages of great apparent strength. Let us take one historic example- the stopping of Mongol raids into Europe. Some serious historians trace the origins of that military reversal to a very simple and cheap instrument- the saddle stirrup.

Sounds ridiculously simple, and too good to be true. But the stirrup allowed a heavily armoured knight to stand in his saddle and use his heavy lance and sword against the lightly armed Mongol cavalrymen. Stirrup use allowed European knights to prevail against the hitherto undefeated Mongols and that was that.

In the 20th century the use of light and CHEAP weapons like the sagger missile used by the Egyptians in 1973 neutralised Israeli tanks and allowed Egypt to regain the Sinai. It was a small change with unexpected results.

Technology is developing and there are systems that cancel out the advantages of top heavy and expensive armaments like air forces and fleets, both vital to Turkey's continued presence in Cyprus. That 40 mile logistic tail linking the occupying army to its mainland supply base is a weak link. The assumption it cannot be severed is not wirtten in stone!

I am not advocating a military solution. Whichever way it goes it will have a heavy cost on everyone. But it is ONE of the possibilities and one which is never discussed. When the possibility of a military setback becomes a serious probability then we might see a change from cynicism to sincerity on the part of Turkey.

[zan]

Turkey dont give a shit about joining the EU as long as the world believes they are on the EU path the foreign investment will continue...

...............Isn't that FRAUD

Oh, well I suppose the Turks will just carry on doing what they do best

Pip-pip
Phoenix

....and I would say to you 'put a sock in it' but I will leave these niceties to you.

Denizaksulu,
. . . are you trying to silence me from being a "whistleblower" to underhand, fraudulant undertakings by Turkish business

Pish-pish
Phoenix

Not at all. I am giving you the right to remain silent, oops sorry got that wrong, that was a different show. I give you the right to exercise your foul mouth as you please. Sooner or later you will choke on the foulness you produce. I have a feeling of deja vu here. I wonder?

Best Regards
DA

You too

[pitsilos]

i think if gul is not careful enough, a bullet will eventually come his way

[zan]

Maybe this idea belongs to a new thread, but I will chance it here.

I note from this thread and past threads retrieved from the forum archives that there has never been any discussion of a military solution to the Cyprus problem. Probably the avoidance of the discussion is based on an assumption shared by all in here that Turkey is just too powerful, and Cyprus just too small and weak for such an eventuality to occur.

The thing with military technology is that it only takes a small change to cancel out the advantages of great apparent strength. Let us take one historic example- the stopping of Mongol raids into Europe. Some serious historians trace the origins of that military reversal to a very simple and cheap instrument- the saddle stirrup.

Sounds ridiculously simple, and too good to be true. But the stirrup allowed a heavily armoured knight to stand in his saddle and use his heavy lance and sword against the lightly armed Mongol cavalrymen. Stirrup use allowed European knights to prevail against the hitherto undefeated Mongols and that was that.

In the 20th century the use of light and CHEAP weapons like the sagger missile used by the Egyptians in 1973 neutralised Israeli tanks and allowed Egypt to regain the Sinai. It was a small change with unexpected results.

Technology is developing and there are systems that cancel out the advantages of top heavy and expensive armaments like air forces and fleets, both vital to Turkey's continued presence in Cyprus. That 40 mile logistic tail linking the occupying army to its mainland supply base is a weak link. The assumption it cannot be severed is not wirtten in stone!

I am not advocating a military solution. Whichever way it goes it will have a heavy cost on everyone. But it is ONE of the possibilities and one which is never discussed. When the possibility of a military setback becomes a serious probability then we might see a change from cynicism to sincerity on the part of Turkey.

So on that thinking Greece and Cyprus should be very very sincere but it seems that they are not.

On this post you seem to have put all the blame on Turkey again with one foul swoop?

As to the solution you are advocating here........Getting the TCs out of the way seems to be the only solution that the "RoC' seems to think about. Stop saying Turkey when it clearly means all those of Turkish origin.

[Nikitas]

Aan you misunderstood the post.

The assumption that keeps the stalemate going is that one side is too strong and the other too weak. What I am wondering, NOT ADVOCATING, is what if the assumption is wrong.

Over the weeks I have been here I see that the cornerstone of your thinking is that Greece and the Greek Cypriots have today the same goals and aspirations of 40 years ago. Naturally you are entitled to your opinion, but the facts of today do not support your assumptions anymore. Enosis is no longer there. The goal is not to dominate the Turkish Cypriot side, but to find a solution that will work and not repeat the deadlock and conflicts of the past.

Take today's Cypriot newspapers- politicians of all parties are reaffirming that president Papadopoulso goes to meet Talat with a mandate for bizonal, biregional federation and nothing else (presumably excluding recent hints of two states etc that saw publicity). No seriouis politician talks of anything other than a workable solution based on those principles. So where do you see enosis and the will to dominate and get the Turkish Cypriots out of the way?

The blame is on Turkey for the continuing occupation. It is no longer necessary when all sides agree on biregional bicommunal federation. Keeping such overwhelming forces on the island can reasonably be interpreted as having other plans. Which would make Turkey the insincere side given that the Greek side has not tried to balance that overwhelming power.

[zan]

Aan you misunderstood the post.

The assumption that keeps the stalemate going is that one side is too strong and the other too weak. What I am wondering, NOT ADVOCATING, is what if the assumption is wrong.

The fact that Turkey cannot use the great power she has and it is only there for the defence of the Turkish Cypriots and, yes, her own interests in Cyprus does not equate with what you are saying. The only other thing that you might be saying is that the "RoC" is still looking to finish this problem with conflict and Turkey is not because of the situation it is in today it would have already done so. The EU accepted the "RoC' in to stop any conflict and it has worked. The UN have already achieved that but I believe they do not have as strong a standing as history has shown.

Over the weeks I have been here I see that the cornerstone of your thinking is that Greece and the Greek Cypriots have today the same goals and aspirations of 40 years ago. Naturally you are entitled to your opinion, but the facts of today do not support your assumptions anymore. Enosis is no longer there. The goal is not to dominate the Turkish Cypriot side, but to find a solution that will work and not repeat the deadlock and conflicts of the past.


You can tell me a hundred times more that Greece and the "RoC' have no intention of uniting but it will not wash. The banks are merging they have a common defence policy for Cyprus and are investing in all things Greek. ENOSIS has already happened as I have already told you so why you keep being surprised by what I say is beyond me. The aspirations now is to take over the entire island and with the way things are the TCs as well. We will lose everything to them because the EU status does not allow for the Zurich agreement to be implemented and all our rights will be usurped. The A Plan was going to redress this problem and that is why TPap did not want it. We have been beating about the bush for so long that you are getting confused as to the realities of the situation. I have been shouting about the ENOSIS of old and how they have achieved it and not that they want to. The old trick of finding Turkey guilty of everything does not work any more and TPap has had his arm twisted to now start talking to the real victims of this affair and that is the TCs. I am not belittling the GC refugees by the way but they need to see their real enemy as being the "RoC" and why they have been lied to for so long. Turkey pulling out will not achieve anything except the power change you are talking about and the consequences you hinted at. Turkey pulling out will not give you the TCs running back into the arms of the "RoC" and will then put them in danger because then it will be classed as internal conflict again and whilst all the world debate about what to do we will be slaughtered once again. You want to talk turkey then this is the reality. Hope you like it



Take today's Cypriot newspapers- politicians of all parties are reaffirming that president Papadopoulso goes to meet Talat with a mandate for bizonal, biregional federation and nothing else (presumably excluding recent hints of two states etc that saw publicity). No seriouis politician talks of anything other than a workable solution based on those principles. So where do you see enosis and the will to dominate and get the Turkish Cypriots out of the way?

I think I have explained this issue above but the fact that TPap has put this mandate out for all to see does not make it the only option on the table. That is one sides wants...There are two in this problem. Having said that ...IF, a workable and therefore agreeable solution is found to be agreeable to both sides then why the hell not... This has it's conditions as every other agreement must and that will be the sticking point because I do not believe that the "RoC" want anything but total domination and I see nothing to make me change my mind on that.

The blame is on Turkey for the continuing occupation. It is no longer necessary when all sides agree on biregional bicommunal federation. Keeping such overwhelming forces on the island can reasonably be interpreted as having other plans. Which would make Turkey the insincere side given that the Greek side has not tried to balance that overwhelming power.

Can you tell me when they agreed on anything that resembles what you have said above....What and when was anything signed..I must have missed it. What does numbers of army got to do with anything. This is just a get out clause for the "RoC" and they would use it even if there were just one soldier on the island. The "RoC" has been arming it self to the teeth for ages and still it carries on. Greece has a hand in this as I have mentioned before so why do you blame Turkey??? What the hell does it have to do with a balance of power again?? I still don't get that because if that were a deciding factor then Turkey should have won this by now???? OH! I forgot...You are blaming Turkey for everything and have forgotten about a certain period of 1963-1974 and to this day. When there is a legitimate government set up on the island as to the Zurich agreement or another equal one then Turkey will have no choice but to move out. Her interests will be catered for when she is in the EU, just like Greece and then both will be satisfied....Any ideas that gives you as to why Cyprus is being goaded by Greece to give Turkey EU hopes a bit of a dashing????? Put the jig saw together and stop trying to force bits in where they do not go...You will get a clearer picture.....

[Nikitas]

Armed to the teeth? How so, zero naval and air forces, land forces ountembered 5 to 1, tanks 6 to 1, zero anti aircraft capability. What defence review have you been reading?

The bank takeovers are interesting. The National Bank of Greece recently took over a major mainland Turkish bank chain, is that an indication that Greece and Turkey are uniting? In a globalised economy capital knows no borders. There are plenty of cross border mainland Greek-Turkish joint ventures that happened, are happening or are planned, by our mainland mothers while we are still arguing about living on an island 70 by 150 miles size!

Get unstuck Zan. Things have changed. You are entitled to want guarantees that past misdeed will not happen again, but you got to investigate how things habe changed. I fyou dont see the changes you will make wrong choices.

[zan]

Armed to the teeth? How so, zero naval and air forces, land forces ountembered 5 to 1, tanks 6 to 1, zero anti aircraft capability. What defence review have you been reading?

The bank takeovers are interesting. The National Bank of Greece recently took over a major mainland Turkish bank chain, is that an indication that Greece and Turkey are uniting? In a globalised economy capital knows no borders. There are plenty of cross border mainland Greek-Turkish joint ventures that happened, are happening or are planned, by our mainland mothers while we are still arguing about living on an island 70 by 150 miles size!

Get unstuck Zan. Things have changed. You are entitled to want guarantees that past misdeed will not happen again, but you got to investigate how things habe changed. I fyou dont see the changes you will make wrong choices.

I think you need to ask Kifeas to post all the bunkers and the missile coverage map again for you to get an idea of how impossible it would be for Turkey to land any troops on Cyprus again if she were to pull out without the safeguards. He seems to have stopped that game for some reason??? Perhaps GR will instead because he joined in for a while.

The point about merging banks with Turkey...I have always said that when big business sees profit to be made then no government can stop them and lo and behold any government that tries. The point also that maybe...Just maybe it is a smoke screen that is being put up would of course be dismissed by my right thinking mind but my suspicious mind and as to who actually owns those banks still troubles me sometimes.

What you are asking by telling me to get unstuck makes it seem as if I am the only one that thinks this way...If that were so then:

What is the Cyprus problem?
Why is Turkey still there?
Why did the UN go to such extremes to put together a plan that might have solved this whole problem?
Why is the "RoC" not asking for the full implementation of the Zurich agreement and will only accept a reformed version of which successive leaders have tried to negotiate?
If Turkey is all powerful and such a threat then why does the "RoC" continue to buy arms and have ordered 40 new tanks when they have Europe. Internal unrest maybe?????

In short; Why is there no solution.....OH! I forgot your get-out clause...Turkey is to blame Hello!............TCs calling......


Lets hope that the new talks will be between the GCs and the TCs and not the Turkish army against the Greek Church eh! Are ya with me.......