Cyprus-Forum.com

[BigDutch]

A thought crossed my mind in another thread that perhaps would be better discussed/answered in this forum, i have therefore created a new thread in the hope that specifically relevant information can be brought into the open.

A site member (its not relevant who) posted a comment regarding validity of Title Deeds in the "TRNC" which for the purposes of my question i will summarise as

"TRNC TITLE - ESDEGER" and "TRNC TITLE - TAHSIS (TMD)" were previously Greek Cypriot owned prior to 1974

So on a technical aspect, did the RoC Land Registry provide copies of all the land registry records for the occupied areas to the Turkish forces to allow an accurate picture of who owned what at a certain cut-off date ?

They have all the records.even they can tell u from ,how and when u or your family has got this deeds.

I don't not beleive this, just find it very strange that information like this was transferred between the RoC and the occupying forces to enable the occupying forces to decide which land was available for giving away and which was already TC/Foreign owned.

The information exchange just doesn't seem like the sort of thing countries at war do for each other. Going back to the time the GC lands started being giving out as exchange land, were the two political sides even talking, let alone allowing the general public to cross the cease-fire line without issue.

So whislt browsing online i've found a sample "TRNC" Title Deed and it is exacly the same format as the RoC one of the 60/70s with the logo and all text boxes in the same place, the form administration code number is even the same - #131 - so i can assume that they are storing the same info in RoC as in the occupied areas administration.

So presumably the RoC land registries duplicated its information to allow the Turkish forces to to accurately created TAHSIS and EDGEGER "titles" from GC land ?

If not how was "exchange land" created from GC owned land as there is no way that people would have remembered all the acres and acres of land, the plot boundaries and who owned what to be able to create new deeds ?

Any ideas ?

[Bill]

I naturally assumed those Turkish Cypriots with pre 74 deeds in the north made themselves known and their land boundaries noted and what was left was thrown into the pot as it could be presumed that the remaining land was previously either individual or government Greek Cypriot owned.

I personally can't see the Greek government giving any help whatsoever to the occupying forces in defining which was Greek owned land and available to be given away to refugees and settlers

Bill

[Eliko]

I think one must have the authority to delve into the political archives in order to answer the questions you pose, (impossible for the general population of course), do you seriously imagine that the warring factions did not have prior knowledge of the problems the conflict would give rise to.

I doubt if either side could give two hoots about who owns what, THEY will have exact records and will use them to THEIR advantage at the appropriate time.

Is that not what politics is all about?, the only thing you can be sure of is that WE will never know.

In my humble opinion.

[BigDutch]

I naturally assumed those Turkish Cypriots with pre 74 deeds in the north made themselves known and their land boundaries noted and what was left was thrown into the pot

But what of the TC's that moved abroad in the 50/60s and still hold RoC title deeds? If they didn't submit their deed to the TC Admin at the time they would also have lost their land ? Perhaps some of the TC forum members would be able to confirm whether this "show your title-deed" request was made !? If not i cannot see how they built a land-registry for this area from scratch with everything being re-surveyed to show existing boundaries, roads, power/utilities, river beds, coastal areas and everything else shown on a topographic land registry map .........

I personally can't see the Greek government giving any help whatsoever to the occupying forces ...

Well of course i wouldn't expect a data-exchange to take place but how else would the "Turkish Immovable Property Commission" verify that the 6000 donums of land i have in Kyrenia is actually mine to make a claim on ? Can i just falsify my 1970's RoC Title Deed to go from 1 donum to 6000 and they will accept it without question ? I doubt it very much, they must be in a position to verify it so they either send someone back to RoC to buy a copy of the title deed or they have their own records to check against !?!

[Pyrpolizer]

BigDutsch,

The land registry records for the northern areas where left there and the occupation regime had no problems knowing who owns what IN there.

Out of 70,000 TCs who were living in the southern part before 1974 only 20,000 moved north immediately in 1974 and those were males who left their families behind.The remaining 50,000 moved north almost a year after (in 1975 i.e) with the 3rd Vienna agreement.

I ASSUME they had all the time they needed to follow the advices messages they were receiving from their people in the occupied part to carry their land title deeds with them.

I also ASSUME those who got nothing were those who presented no title deeds or TC expats who dropped in the trashy state without having any documents with them. And there are about 1500 TC families who got nothing.

I also ASSUME many of those who run to the RoC lands registry department after the borders opened, DID THAT because somehow when the original looting occured they had no documents to show. Hence they hope tht even at this late stage they can get some of the loot.

[halil]

Bigdutch
i think u are mixing apples with apricots.First of all land register offices are not under the army.
when the confict ended . civilians got the goverment offices .
All the registered books were there.they were not in greek language.dont forget that official ROC documents were in 3 languages.
my family has got very old deeds which are in old turkish alphabet and in english.if i know how i can paste them here i will.i will ask to iceman do it for me to show. Few years ago we went to Kyrenia register office called tapu in turkish. we showed our very old deeds they find all the regords thats why i am telling u they can find it. no one gave them roc datas dont panic/all those records belongs to all cypriots not only for the roc.they have take care of them.this is all our past and belongings doesnt matter who we are.same thinks u can get from nicosia tapu office as well. als there is Harita and kadostro office in nicosia that u can get ever kocans map showing all your boarders.

[Pyrpolizer]

Well I am not sure it WAS like you said halil. I think before 1974 each DISTRICT lands department had ONLY its own DISTRICT records. It did not have records of other districts. For example the Kyrenia Lands registry department had records only for the Kyrenia district.
The RoC records for Famagusta Kyrenia districts etc were left there in 1974.

Don't confuse it with what is happening today. Today everything is on multiple hard disks. Back then it was not so easy.

[Pyrpolizer]

Bigdutch
i think u are mixing apples with apricots.First of all land register offices are not under the army.
when the confict ended . civilians got the goverment offices .
All the registered books were there.they were not in greek language.dont forget that official ROC documents were in 3 languages.
my family has got very old deeds which are in old turkish alphabet and in english.if i know how i can paste them here i will.i will ask to iceman do it for me to show. Few years ago we went to Kyrenia register office called tapu in turkish. we showed our very old deeds they find all the regords thats why i am telling u they can find it. no one gave them roc datas dont panic/all those records belongs to all cypriots not only for the roc.they have take care of them.this is all our past and belongings doesnt matter who we are.same thinks u can get from nicosia tapu office as well. als there is Harita and kadostro office in nicosia that u can get ever kocans map showing all your boarders.

Yes but unless you changed those deeds with new deeds in 1948 when the lands department was established by the British those deeds are not valid. I mean if someone else can show 1948 deeds for the same properties, your Ottoman times deeds become useless.

[Viewpoint]

halil this is how lots of TC land was lost by TCs who did not claim them and thats why there are many disputes as to the rightful owners of land now in the hands of GCs.

[Pyrpolizer]

How??