Cyprus-Forum.com

[Murataga]

Erol has already gone... ...to tonight's forum meeting!

No, there's no reason for Erol to go, all he needs is a break and to cut down on quantity.

What your gonna go and meet this theiving cunt!? Fuck him - i hope his car hits a tree.

I'm not going to tonight's meet for personal reasons but no I don't wish that for him Snake or anyone else for that matter. I understand your anger but let's take that anger and turn it into powerful thought provoking posts.

Like this one about SG report quotes that you later started quote yourself like a parrot?

Funny how all the above pieces you’ve “quoted” are written in GARBAGE English and some don’t even make sense. These are NOT parts of any UN reports like you claim Murataga but manufactured crap.

Anyone who has ever read a UN report would’ve noticed the strong command of English and IMPARTIAL style with which it is written unlike your junk!

So what gives? Why are you so shameless?

For Pete's sake haven't I already explained why you led me to believe that the quote was fake because you altered a word that made a world of a difference?

Yes, we know. The "world of difference" it made because it had "onerous" (meaning: "difficult to endure" or "oppressive" per webster dictionary) as opposed to "enormous" to describe the hardships of the TCs (which by the way you still haven`t prooven in a way you asked me to proove it in the first place) You are still unethically and unasahamedly claiming that this was what led you to think the quote was not "proper English" by referring to stating "enormous hardship" was "baby English" although it appeared even in the official websites of credible institutions. The quote was the same thing essentially stating:

...restrictions on the freedom of movement of
civilians, economic restrictions, the unavailability of some
essential public services, and the sufferings of refugees

of TCs which you haven`t adressed. You haven`t addressed their onerous hardships aswell. You haven`t adressed the rest of the perfectly correct quotes either.

Beacuse you can not. Because denial is all you can build your arguements around as seen by all in this very thread. You have been exposed very harshly for the crime-promoter that you are. You have been humiliated here beyond anything you experienced before for your denials and lack of arguements. You concentrate and you concentrate hard tonight and don`t forget to ask for all the help you can get - because you need it.

[Pyrpolizer]

Must you ALL quote the ENTIRE Erol post every time??? Just quote the first line please to indicate what you're referring to followed by your comment. What are you newbies?

I think it is one of the best posts made on this forum and apparently many people think very highly of it aswell. In case it bothers you or in case you did not notice it as much as you should here it is again; read it and weep :

When the same report says directly the following then your interpretations are not needed. You have been doing then what you are doing now, and what you have been doing since the 50s. As if there is any doubt about what your aim is.

It is not an interpretation to know that ingnoring ones own consitutional court rulings is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that ignoring ones own constitution is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that setting up armed bands of ethnic thugs used to kill and intimidate innocent TC is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that Clerides demands to unilateral non negotiable changes to the agreed consitution in favour of GC and to the detrmiment of TC, before he would 'allow' TC to take up their legal government positions, was illegal. They were all clearly illegal - but that does not matter if illegalites benefit GC. Illegality only matters if GC lose, then it is the single and only important thing.

You do not ask the reequired questions, if your goal is objective understanding of what occured and why, as to WHY the TC leadership pursued such a policy and more importantly WHY it was able to gain so much support from it from ordianary TC. You do not ask this question because it involves looking at YOUR communites actions and responsibilites. So you just do not do it. You do not ask what effect on support for seperation amongst ordianary TC the GC communities pursuist of the ethnic divisive and exculding objective of enosis had. You do not ask what role the post 60's GC leaderships refusal to implement that which had previously agreed had. What effect the illegal refusal to abide by consituional court rulings had. What affect appointing a vicious racist thug like Yiorjardis to the interior ministry had. What effect his romaing bands of ethnic killers had. What effect driving TC from their homes at gunpoint and burning the hoes after they left had. The reason you ignore all of these questions is that you have no interest in objective understanding , only in propaganda.

If you had any complaints then why you didn't take RoC to international courts? Why there are no UN resolutions or anything of that sort placing the blame on the GCs as you do? (in the same way that UN declared your pseudo state as legally invalid)

There was no 'international court' that had jusrisdiction and could stop your leaderships illegalites. Your leadership knew this. They knew that the only thing that could ultimatley stop their illegalites was Turkey. If you think the TC community could have challenged and stopped these illegalites at the ECHR at that time it just shows you know nothing of the history of the ECHR.

Apparently Erolz you want to be the Judge, but sorry you are not. You can have any opinion you want, but you can not decide what is legal and what is not based on your own interpretations.

But Clerides in 65 could be Judge and just decide

14.The Government position was that certain
provisions of the constitution which conferred a special status
on the Turkish Cypriot community could no longer be considered as
being in effect;

and

Finally,
Mr.Clerides stated that unless the Turkish Cypriot members
accepted the conditions laid down by him, he found it pointless
to supply to them copies of the pending bills.­

and

However, since the Government
had stated that it no longer recognized Dr. Kuchuk in his capacity as
Vice-President, this latter provision of the constitution was
inapplicable in practice.­

and

He [clerides] made
it plain that, unless agreement was reached on these matters, he
would not permit the Turkish Cypriot members to attend the House.
Mr.Clerides also stated that the constitutional provisions
concerning promulgation of the laws by the President and the
Vice-President were no longer applicable. He subsequently stated
that in his opinion the Turkish Cypriot members had no legal
standing any more in the House.­

It is because the GC leadership showed its DETERMINATION to do as it liked with NO REGARD for legality in its pursuit of illegaly removing the TC communites rights that those TC elements that wanted division as a politcal ideal were able to gain so much support from ordianry TC.

Having acted in the most clearly illegal was the GC leadership was then rewarded for it's illegalites and violence and aggression by the international community with 'recognition'. It was rewarded with such because it was expedient to the world powers at the time to do so, not because such was just or legal. This is clear. So havin gained a massive advantage through the use of illegality and the rewarding of such by the international community placing self interest and expediency pefore justic and international leglaity, you now lecture the TC about ignoring legality and seeking to gain back what was stolen from it , by the SAME meathods - the use of powerful states willingness to place their own self interests before internaional legality and justice.

If you want a solution based on purely legality then you have to address ALL the illegalites, not just ours. If you want to try and keep what you stole illegaly from us and was allowed to steal by powerful states putting their own self interests before legality , then do not expect us to use the SAME meathods.

Thanks for repeating the "best" post of the year Murataga. It made lazy guys like me who fall asleep when reading novels, read it and discover the "gold" in it.

It basically equates the illegal stealing of someones lands/properties, his ousting and ethnic cleansing, as practiced against the GCs, with the "illegal" effort to straighten out an already ILLEGAL constitution, enforced on us by our colonizers and ENEMIES under conditions of BLACKMAIL, that gave an 18% minority equal partnership rights, almost double it's size participation in Government jobs, and more than double it's size participation in the security forces.

What a nice thing to be equal even in illegalities Vs 'illegalities"!

[zan]

When the me report says directly the following then your interpretations are not needed. You have been doing then what you are doing now, and what you have been doing since the 50s. As if there is any doubt about what your aim is.

Very god posting, I do not repeat whole since is already repeated several times.

There are however some points which must be underlined and clarified.

You said since the 50s.!!!Is not practical or even fair to evaluate a situation without to take into account the circumstances under which some historical events took place.

Lets go to the atmosphere of 50s.Cyprus under the control of Britsh and after long and hard efforts of the Greek population of the Island (Turkey had no interest about Cyprus since it sold same to British, accepting no right or interest on the Island) to obtain their freedom and guide their Island where their soul requested them started an armed fight against the British Empire.

The enemy was the occupator and the fights were not involving any Tc until 1956 when the British employed almoast 2500 Tcs to fight against the Gcs.As you can easily understand when you are fighting for your freedom anybody who is helping the enemy and particularly by guns became a target of your fight since he is a part of the occupation forces.

The 2500Tcs by guides and orders of British ,started , for first time, to kill Gcs who were fighting for their freedom- It was that time when Tcs became a part of the problems which Gcs had to face in their effort for Union with Greece- Needeless to say that Union with Greece was not an important factor for Tcs before 50s.

The creation of TMT and other terrorist teams by Tcs prolonged the fights even after the agreements of 60s.In the meantime Turkey started to play a more deap role in the story.

concluson:The Cyprus problem as it is appears today is a result of the rejection of the will of the majority of the Island to decide for their destiny.

The problem created for reasons simple as above-Cyprus problem in regard to its creation is very simple but became very complecated in regard to its solution

Without a hundred year call for ENOSIS and instead a call for a republic of Cyprus would not have sent the TCs into the arms of the British...It is as simple as that. That is what happened in the period that you are referring to.

[Piratis]

It is not an interpretation to know that ingnoring ones own consitutional court rulings is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that ignoring ones own constitution is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that setting up armed bands of ethnic thugs used to kill and intimidate innocent TC is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that Clerides demands to unilateral non negotiable changes to the agreed consitution in favour of GC and to the detrmiment of TC, before he would 'allow' TC to take up their legal government positions, was illegal. They were all clearly illegal - but that does not matter if illegalites benefit GC. Illegality only matters if GC lose, then it is the single and only important thing.

I like it how you mention only the TC casualties and your side of the story in general, as if the TC thugs that were killing innocent GCs and your secessionist acts were all fine and legal. So yes, both sides had committed wrong doings during that period and what is in fact your own opinion and interpretation is that the blame for those events lies with GCs.

You do not ask the reequired questions, if your goal is objective understanding of what occured and why, as to WHY the TC leadership pursued such a policy and more importantly WHY it was able to gain so much support from it from ordianary TC. You do not ask this question because it involves looking at YOUR communites actions and responsibilites. So you just do not do it. You do not ask what effect on support for seperation amongst ordianary TC the GC communities pursuist of the ethnic divisive and exculding objective of enosis had. You do not ask what role the post 60's GC leaderships refusal to implement that which had previously agreed had. What effect the illegal refusal to abide by consituional court rulings had. What affect appointing a vicious racist thug like Yiorjardis to the interior ministry had. What effect his romaing bands of ethnic killers had. What effect driving TC from their homes at gunpoint and burning the hoes after they left had. The reason you ignore all of these questions is that you have no interest in objective understanding , only in propaganda.

Why should I ask you, a partitionist who is looking for excuses to continue the criminal occupation of my country, any questions? Get off your high horse little man.
I have personally investigated in quite detail that period and I got the answers. Yes, I have seen, accepted and condemned, any wrong doings from our side because I have no problem with the whole truth. On the contrary you seem to look at the facts in a totally selective and one sided way. You ask from us to acknowledge the suffering we have caused to you, while you choose to ignore the one you caused to us and your own wrong doings.

There was no 'international court' that had jusrisdiction and could stop your leaderships illegalites. Your leadership knew this. They knew that the only thing that could ultimatley stop their illegalites was Turkey. If you think the TC community could have challenged and stopped these illegalites at the ECHR at that time it just shows you know nothing of the history of the ECHR.

Here you can find all UN resolutions about Cyprus that start from the period we are talking about:
http://www.un.int/cyprus/resolut.htm

Do you see anything there that places the blame on GCs? Have you ever thought that when the UN were preparing those resolutions they judged based on the whole truth, and not in the way you make your judgments based on one sited and selective views?
Here is an example of a resolution declaring something illegal:

1. Deplores the declaration of the Turkish Cypriot authorities of the purported secession of part of the Republic of Cyprus;

2. Considers the declaration referred to above as legally invalid and calls for its withdrawal;
http://www.un.int/cyprus/scr541.htm

It is because the GC leadership showed its DETERMINATION to do as it liked with NO REGARD for legality in its pursuit of illegaly removing the TC communites rights that those TC elements that wanted division as a politcal ideal were able to gain so much support from ordianry TC.

The partition aim of TCs existed since before the 50s and it continues non stop until today. The reason is that TCs want to gain land on our loss. The excuses vary depending on the period.

Having acted in the most clearly illegal was the GC leadership was then rewarded for it's illegalites and violence and aggression by the international community with 'recognition'. It was rewarded with such because it was expedient to the world powers at the time to do so, not because such was just or legal. This is clear.

"Not because such was just or legal" but because of what else? Because Cyprus is a big regional power and has strong connections and influence with the world super powers?
If we have one "weapon" to resist the hostile and expansionistic policies of Turkey (with the use of the TC minority) against our country, thats exactly because we have legality and justice on our side.
Turkey might have one of the top 10 armies in the world, it might have the AngloAmericans as its best friends, it might be a huge market that other countries will have interest in, but legality and justice has never and will never be on your side, no matter how you are trying to distort the past by presenting it in a totally one sided and selective way.

If you want a solution based on purely legality then you have to address ALL the illegalites, not just ours. If you want to try and keep what you stole illegaly from us and was allowed to steal by powerful states putting their own self interests before legality , then do not expect us to use the SAME meathods.

Erolz, I have repeatedly said that legality should return to its 100% and all Cypriots should get their 100% rights. It is you who rejects this because you want to gain even more on our loss via brute force. Yes, if you stop your crimes and illegalities against us, the consequences you face due to those illegalities will cease to be enforced as well, and therefore all Cypriots will get their rights back.

Don't forget however that legality also includes the right of presidents to propose changes for reforms, and also the rights of citizens to apply to international courts if they believe something in the constitution of their country is racist and against human rights.

So whenever you are ready to return to legality let us know. Until then any and all your efforts to legalize the crime you continue to commit against our country will fall in the gap since your lame excuses made up by tiny selective parts of the past are useless.

[zan]

It is not an interpretation to know that ingnoring ones own consitutional court rulings is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that ignoring ones own constitution is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that setting up armed bands of ethnic thugs used to kill and intimidate innocent TC is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that Clerides demands to unilateral non negotiable changes to the agreed consitution in favour of GC and to the detrmiment of TC, before he would 'allow' TC to take up their legal government positions, was illegal. They were all clearly illegal - but that does not matter if illegalites benefit GC. Illegality only matters if GC lose, then it is the single and only important thing.

I like it how you mention only the TC casualties and your side of the story in general, as if the TC thugs that were killing innocent GCs and your secessionist acts were all fine and legal. So yes, both sides had committed wrong doings during that period and what is in fact your own opinion and interpretation is that the blame for those events lies with GCs.

That is choice coming from you . The objectives of those that wanted ENOSIS and those that were trying to protect their very ixistence on the island does not come into play when you give quotes either. Thge reasons quite clearly stated by erolz shows that only one side had a choice as to how they behaved.A call for the independence of Cyprus and not ENOSIS would not have set the TCs against you...Simple as that.

You do not ask the reequired questions, if your goal is objective understanding of what occured and why, as to WHY the TC leadership pursued such a policy and more importantly WHY it was able to gain so much support from it from ordianary TC. You do not ask this question because it involves looking at YOUR communites actions and responsibilites. So you just do not do it. You do not ask what effect on support for seperation amongst ordianary TC the GC communities pursuist of the ethnic divisive and exculding objective of enosis had. You do not ask what role the post 60's GC leaderships refusal to implement that which had previously agreed had. What effect the illegal refusal to abide by consituional court rulings had. What affect appointing a vicious racist thug like Yiorjardis to the interior ministry had. What effect his romaing bands of ethnic killers had. What effect driving TC from their homes at gunpoint and burning the hoes after they left had. The reason you ignore all of these questions is that you have no interest in objective understanding , only in propaganda.

Why should I ask you, a partitionist who is looking for excuses to continue the criminal occupation of my country, any questions? Get off your high horse little man.
I have personally investigated in quite detail that period and I got the answers. Yes, I have seen, accepted and condemned, any wrong doings from our side because I have no problem with the whole truth. On the contrary you seem to look at the facts in a totally selective and one sided way. You ask from us to acknowledge the suffering we have caused to you, while you choose to ignore the one you caused to us and your own wrong doings.


The facy that you ask us to pay the penalties and you just step back in time says a lot for your sense of justice. You are in tthe position of Goverment throughy deception that was carried out in 1963 and planned for long before so stop your crap about aknowledging our plight and accept your wrongs...Two seperate issues.

There was no 'international court' that had jusrisdiction and could stop your leaderships illegalites. Your leadership knew this. They knew that the only thing that could ultimatley stop their illegalites was Turkey. If you think the TC community could have challenged and stopped these illegalites at the ECHR at that time it just shows you know nothing of the history of the ECHR.

Here you can find all UN resolutions about Cyprus that start from the period we are talking about:
http://www.un.int/cyprus/resolut.htm

4 March 19644. Recommends the creation, with the consent of the Government of Cyprus, of a United Nations Peace-Keeping Force in Cyprus

Planned for in the Akritas plan. After that where were the TCs....Planned for in the Akritas plan

[denizaksulu]

Must you ALL quote the ENTIRE Erol post every time??? Just quote the first line please to indicate what you're referring to followed by your comment. What are you newbies?

Was it too large a pill, GR . Dont blame us for gods sake. Yes, in comparison with you, I am a newbee!

[zan]

Always be suspicious of newbees ey! GR.........


McTurk.........are you serious I have a hard enough time with one name let alone the numbers you post with

[Piratis]

Zan, if some GCs continued having enosis as their aim, the same goes for TCs with partition. Keep repeating just one side of the story didn't help you then, and it will not help you now.

You can have your own opinion about those events, and interpret them in any way you wish. However you should not confuse facts with your own opinion.

E.g. a Fact: "Recommends the creation, with the consent of the Government of Cyprus, of a United Nations Peace-Keeping Force in Cyprus"

Thats a fact. Your own interpretation to that could be "Akrtitas plan" or whatever. The interpretation of somebody else could be that it was to protect GCs from the secessionist and hostile acts of TCs against GCs.

Both sides committed crimes and acted wrong in that period. The UN with their resolutions did not blame exclusively one side or the other. Now you could blame exclusively the GCs and stick to your one sided version of the story, but such propaganda will not get you anywhere.

The real question is: Why in 2007, out of the 436 years we coexisted on this island, you choose to emphasize only one past decade, and even in that decade you want to see only what it suits you to see in the most selective and one sided way?

The answer is obvious: Because you want to continue with crimes and illegalities against us. Just like you have been doing from the day you set your foot on this island and for the 340 out of those 436 years (including the last 33 years) and out of that ocean of suffering and oppression you have caused to us you are trying to extract the drop of our wrong doings in order to use them as an excuse for yet more crimes against us in the future.

If that was not your aim, then you would have accepted to end all illegalities today and allow Cyprus to finally be a normal democratic country like all the rest, and you wouldn't be looking in the past for lame excuses.

[zan]

Zan, if some GCs continued having enosis as their aim, the same goes for TCs with partition. Keep repeating just one side of the story didn't help you then, and it will not help you now.

You can have your own opinion about those events, and interpret them in any way you wish. However you should not confuse facts with your own opinion.

E.g. a Fact: "Recommends the creation, with the consent of the Government of Cyprus, of a United Nations Peace-Keeping Force in Cyprus"

Thats a fact. Your own interpretation to that could be "Akrtitas plan" or whatever. The interpretation of somebody else could be that it was to protect GCs from the secessionist and hostile acts of TCs against GCs.

Both sides committed crimes and acted wrong in that period. The UN with their resolutions did not blame exclusively one side or the other. Now you could blame exclusively the GCs and stick to your one sided version of the story, but such propaganda will not get you anywhere.

The real question is: Why in 2007, out of the 436 years we coexisted on this island, you choose to emphasize only one past decade, and even in that decade you want to see only what it suits you to see in the most selective and one sided way?

The answer is obvious: Because you want to continue with crimes and illegalities against us. Just like you have been doing from the day you set your foot on this island and for the 340 out of those 436 years (including the last 33 years) and out of that ocean of suffering and oppression you have caused to us you are trying to extract the drop of our wrong doings in order to use them as an excuse for yet more crimes against us in the future.

If that was not your aim, then you would have accepted to end all illegalities today and allow Cyprus to finally be a normal democratic country like all the rest, and you wouldn't be looking in the past for lame excuses.

You have asked the question of why I choose one part of history and the answer I give will always be the same....The fact that A republic was formed and the only republic in the rest of that history is the rreason. Simple as that.

The fact also that you have been using the Taksim point to bad effect for a long time does not make the real history any different either. ENOSIS was there way before any idea of Taksim. You have quoted, when it suits you that is, that Turkey signed away the island to us the Cypriots and then you go on about Taksim...We were quite happy in a united Cyprus with our rights under the Zurich agreement but it was the application of the Akritas plan that scuppered those rights. The fact still remains that the Akritas plan arranged for the events of having the only remaining part of the government recognised after the trouble was started by your police and those in police uniform from Greece. These are the facts my friend and you trying to distort them makes no difference because the EU and the UN are no longer fooled by it. America certainly isn't so your work is done....

[Piratis]

Sure, the liberation aim of Cypriots for the creation of a Greek state was there since 1821, long time before partition, since at that time the turks ruled the whole Cyprus and treated us like slaves, just like the ruled all the other Greek islands and the Greek mainland. When they had the whole island under their control, against the will of the Cypriots, then of course they wouldn't want to partition it and take just part of it.

The fact is that we have legality on our side. What you have is an occupation army and lame excuses. If you want to ignore the fact that you never stoped fighting for partition then do it. Like you deny everything that doesn't suit you. (Armenian genocide, the oppression of the Kurds, the invasion of Cyprus, the illegality of the "trnc" etc) Noting new coming from a Turk. Just remember that denying the truth will not legalize your illegalities.