Cyprus-Forum.com

[zan]

Lest we forget

Zan... where have you disappeared to lately? Just wondering... does "McTurk" ring any bells?

That is eating you up isn't it mate......

Not me pal...Guess again.


Not been well mate and busy...Not a good combination because I have to work till I drop...

[MR-from-NG]

When the same report says directly the following then your interpretations are not needed. You have been doing then what you are doing now, and what you have been doing since the 50s. As if there is any doubt about what your aim is.

It is not an interpretation to know that ingnoring ones own consitutional court rulings is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that ignoring ones own constitution is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that setting up armed bands of ethnic thugs used to kill and intimidate innocent TC is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that Clerides demands to unilateral non negotiable changes to the agreed consitution in favour of GC and to the detrmiment of TC, before he would 'allow' TC to take up their legal government positions, was illegal. They were all clearly illegal - but that does not matter if illegalites benefit GC. Illegality only matters if GC lose, then it is the single and only important thing.

You do not ask the reequired questions, if your goal is objective understanding of what occured and why, as to WHY the TC leadership pursued such a policy and more importantly WHY it was able to gain so much support from it from ordianary TC. You do not ask this question because it involves looking at YOUR communites actions and responsibilites. So you just do not do it. You do not ask what effect on support for seperation amongst ordianary TC the GC communities pursuist of the ethnic divisive and exculding objective of enosis had. You do not ask what role the post 60's GC leaderships refusal to implement that which had previously agreed had. What effect the illegal refusal to abide by consituional court rulings had. What affect appointing a vicious racist thug like Yiorjardis to the interior ministry had. What effect his romaing bands of ethnic killers had. What effect driving TC from their homes at gunpoint and burning the hoes after they left had. The reason you ignore all of these questions is that you have no interest in objective understanding , only in propaganda.

If you had any complaints then why you didn't take RoC to international courts? Why there are no UN resolutions or anything of that sort placing the blame on the GCs as you do? (in the same way that UN declared your pseudo state as legally invalid)

There was no 'international court' that had jusrisdiction and could stop your leaderships illegalites. Your leadership knew this. They knew that the only thing that could ultimatley stop their illegalites was Turkey. If you think the TC community could have challenged and stopped these illegalites at the ECHR at that time it just shows you know nothing of the history of the ECHR.

Apparently Erolz you want to be the Judge, but sorry you are not. You can have any opinion you want, but you can not decide what is legal and what is not based on your own interpretations.

But Clerides in 65 could be Judge and just decide

14.The Government position was that certain
provisions of the constitution which conferred a special status
on the Turkish Cypriot community could no longer be considered as
being in effect;

and

Finally,
Mr.Clerides stated that unless the Turkish Cypriot members
accepted the conditions laid down by him, he found it pointless
to supply to them copies of the pending bills.­

and

However, since the Government
had stated that it no longer recognized Dr. Kuchuk in his capacity as
Vice-President, this latter provision of the constitution was
inapplicable in practice.­

and

He [clerides] made
it plain that, unless agreement was reached on these matters, he
would not permit the Turkish Cypriot members to attend the House.
Mr.Clerides also stated that the constitutional provisions
concerning promulgation of the laws by the President and the
Vice-President were no longer applicable. He subsequently stated
that in his opinion the Turkish Cypriot members had no legal
standing any more in the House.­

It is because the GC leadership showed its DETERMINATION to do as it liked with NO REGARD for legality in its pursuit of illegaly removing the TC communites rights that those TC elements that wanted division as a politcal ideal were able to gain so much support from ordianry TC.

Having acted in the most clearly illegal was the GC leadership was then rewarded for it's illegalites and violence and aggression by the international community with 'recognition'. It was rewarded with such because it was expedient to the world powers at the time to do so, not because such was just or legal. This is clear. So havin gained a massive advantage through the use of illegality and the rewarding of such by the international community placing self interest and expediency pefore justic and international leglaity, you now lecture the TC about ignoring legality and seeking to gain back what was stolen from it , by the SAME meathods - the use of powerful states willingness to place their own self interests before internaional legality and justice.

If you want a solution based on purely legality then you have to address ALL the illegalites, not just ours. If you want to try and keep what you stole illegaly from us and was allowed to steal by powerful states putting their own self interests before legality , then do not expect us to use the SAME meathods.

Erolz, that's an excellent post man. Last time we met you were treated to a milkshake, this time it will be a 16 ounce steak.

[denizaksulu]

When the same report says directly the following then your interpretations are not needed. You have been doing then what you are doing now, and what you have been doing since the 50s. As if there is any doubt about what your aim is.

It is not an interpretation to know that ingnoring ones own consitutional court rulings is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that ignoring ones own constitution is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that setting up armed bands of ethnic thugs used to kill and intimidate innocent TC is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that Clerides demands to unilateral non negotiable changes to the agreed consitution in favour of GC and to the detrmiment of TC, before he would 'allow' TC to take up their legal government positions, was illegal. They were all clearly illegal - but that does not matter if illegalites benefit GC. Illegality only matters if GC lose, then it is the single and only important thing.

You do not ask the reequired questions, if your goal is objective understanding of what occured and why, as to WHY the TC leadership pursued such a policy and more importantly WHY it was able to gain so much support from it from ordianary TC. You do not ask this question because it involves looking at YOUR communites actions and responsibilites. So you just do not do it. You do not ask what effect on support for seperation amongst ordianary TC the GC communities pursuist of the ethnic divisive and exculding objective of enosis had. You do not ask what role the post 60's GC leaderships refusal to implement that which had previously agreed had. What effect the illegal refusal to abide by consituional court rulings had. What affect appointing a vicious racist thug like Yiorjardis to the interior ministry had. What effect his romaing bands of ethnic killers had. What effect driving TC from their homes at gunpoint and burning the hoes after they left had. The reason you ignore all of these questions is that you have no interest in objective understanding , only in propaganda.

If you had any complaints then why you didn't take RoC to international courts? Why there are no UN resolutions or anything of that sort placing the blame on the GCs as you do? (in the same way that UN declared your pseudo state as legally invalid)

There was no 'international court' that had jusrisdiction and could stop your leaderships illegalites. Your leadership knew this. They knew that the only thing that could ultimatley stop their illegalites was Turkey. If you think the TC community could have challenged and stopped these illegalites at the ECHR at that time it just shows you know nothing of the history of the ECHR.

Apparently Erolz you want to be the Judge, but sorry you are not. You can have any opinion you want, but you can not decide what is legal and what is not based on your own interpretations.

But Clerides in 65 could be Judge and just decide

14.The Government position was that certain
provisions of the constitution which conferred a special status
on the Turkish Cypriot community could no longer be considered as
being in effect;

and

Finally,
Mr.Clerides stated that unless the Turkish Cypriot members
accepted the conditions laid down by him, he found it pointless
to supply to them copies of the pending bills.­

and

However, since the Government
had stated that it no longer recognized Dr. Kuchuk in his capacity as
Vice-President, this latter provision of the constitution was
inapplicable in practice.­

and

He [clerides] made
it plain that, unless agreement was reached on these matters, he
would not permit the Turkish Cypriot members to attend the House.
Mr.Clerides also stated that the constitutional provisions
concerning promulgation of the laws by the President and the
Vice-President were no longer applicable. He subsequently stated
that in his opinion the Turkish Cypriot members had no legal
standing any more in the House.­

It is because the GC leadership showed its DETERMINATION to do as it liked with NO REGARD for legality in its pursuit of illegaly removing the TC communites rights that those TC elements that wanted division as a politcal ideal were able to gain so much support from ordianry TC.

Having acted in the most clearly illegal was the GC leadership was then rewarded for it's illegalites and violence and aggression by the international community with 'recognition'. It was rewarded with such because it was expedient to the world powers at the time to do so, not because such was just or legal. This is clear. So havin gained a massive advantage through the use of illegality and the rewarding of such by the international community placing self interest and expediency pefore justic and international leglaity, you now lecture the TC about ignoring legality and seeking to gain back what was stolen from it , by the SAME meathods - the use of powerful states willingness to place their own self interests before internaional legality and justice.

If you want a solution based on purely legality then you have to address ALL the illegalites, not just ours. If you want to try and keep what you stole illegaly from us and was allowed to steal by powerful states putting their own self interests before legality , then do not expect us to use the SAME meathods.

An excellent post that will remain as a cornerstone for future discussions. Well done erolz.

Needless to say people like Piratis will turn on the old 'Propaganda' tune and turn up the full volume.

Now he has it from the 'horses mouth' so to speak.

Clerides was respected by quite a few TCs for his honesty. I am sure he will reveal more when his biography is completed. I suggest Piratis and co get a copy. If it has already been published I will get my copy straight away. I hope it is in English.
Do you think Piratis considers Clerides as a traitor? I wonder.

Excellent work here ErolZ
Regards
DA

[Get Real!]

Must you ALL quote the ENTIRE Erol post every time??? Just quote the first line please to indicate what you're referring to followed by your comment. What are you newbies?

[phoenix]

Must you ALL quote the ENTIRE Erol post every time??? Just quote the first line please to indicate what you're referring to followed by your comment. What are you newbies?

And, yet there seems to be a bit missing from the end, which I am sure said something about it being erolz's last post because this forum did not suit his purpose or something.

Where's the end bit gone

Pip-pip
Phoenix

[Murataga]

Must you ALL quote the ENTIRE Erol post every time??? Just quote the first line please to indicate what you're referring to followed by your comment. What are you newbies?

I think it is one of the best posts made on this forum and apparently many people think very highly of it aswell. In case it bothers you or in case you did not notice it as much as you should here it is again; read it and weep :

When the same report says directly the following then your interpretations are not needed. You have been doing then what you are doing now, and what you have been doing since the 50s. As if there is any doubt about what your aim is.

It is not an interpretation to know that ingnoring ones own consitutional court rulings is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that ignoring ones own constitution is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that setting up armed bands of ethnic thugs used to kill and intimidate innocent TC is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that Clerides demands to unilateral non negotiable changes to the agreed consitution in favour of GC and to the detrmiment of TC, before he would 'allow' TC to take up their legal government positions, was illegal. They were all clearly illegal - but that does not matter if illegalites benefit GC. Illegality only matters if GC lose, then it is the single and only important thing.

You do not ask the reequired questions, if your goal is objective understanding of what occured and why, as to WHY the TC leadership pursued such a policy and more importantly WHY it was able to gain so much support from it from ordianary TC. You do not ask this question because it involves looking at YOUR communites actions and responsibilites. So you just do not do it. You do not ask what effect on support for seperation amongst ordianary TC the GC communities pursuist of the ethnic divisive and exculding objective of enosis had. You do not ask what role the post 60's GC leaderships refusal to implement that which had previously agreed had. What effect the illegal refusal to abide by consituional court rulings had. What affect appointing a vicious racist thug like Yiorjardis to the interior ministry had. What effect his romaing bands of ethnic killers had. What effect driving TC from their homes at gunpoint and burning the hoes after they left had. The reason you ignore all of these questions is that you have no interest in objective understanding , only in propaganda.

If you had any complaints then why you didn't take RoC to international courts? Why there are no UN resolutions or anything of that sort placing the blame on the GCs as you do? (in the same way that UN declared your pseudo state as legally invalid)

There was no 'international court' that had jusrisdiction and could stop your leaderships illegalites. Your leadership knew this. They knew that the only thing that could ultimatley stop their illegalites was Turkey. If you think the TC community could have challenged and stopped these illegalites at the ECHR at that time it just shows you know nothing of the history of the ECHR.

Apparently Erolz you want to be the Judge, but sorry you are not. You can have any opinion you want, but you can not decide what is legal and what is not based on your own interpretations.

But Clerides in 65 could be Judge and just decide

14.The Government position was that certain
provisions of the constitution which conferred a special status
on the Turkish Cypriot community could no longer be considered as
being in effect;

and

Finally,
Mr.Clerides stated that unless the Turkish Cypriot members
accepted the conditions laid down by him, he found it pointless
to supply to them copies of the pending bills.­

and

However, since the Government
had stated that it no longer recognized Dr. Kuchuk in his capacity as
Vice-President, this latter provision of the constitution was
inapplicable in practice.­

and

He [clerides] made
it plain that, unless agreement was reached on these matters, he
would not permit the Turkish Cypriot members to attend the House.
Mr.Clerides also stated that the constitutional provisions
concerning promulgation of the laws by the President and the
Vice-President were no longer applicable. He subsequently stated
that in his opinion the Turkish Cypriot members had no legal
standing any more in the House.­

It is because the GC leadership showed its DETERMINATION to do as it liked with NO REGARD for legality in its pursuit of illegaly removing the TC communites rights that those TC elements that wanted division as a politcal ideal were able to gain so much support from ordianry TC.

Having acted in the most clearly illegal was the GC leadership was then rewarded for it's illegalites and violence and aggression by the international community with 'recognition'. It was rewarded with such because it was expedient to the world powers at the time to do so, not because such was just or legal. This is clear. So havin gained a massive advantage through the use of illegality and the rewarding of such by the international community placing self interest and expediency pefore justic and international leglaity, you now lecture the TC about ignoring legality and seeking to gain back what was stolen from it , by the SAME meathods - the use of powerful states willingness to place their own self interests before internaional legality and justice.

If you want a solution based on purely legality then you have to address ALL the illegalites, not just ours. If you want to try and keep what you stole illegaly from us and was allowed to steal by powerful states putting their own self interests before legality , then do not expect us to use the SAME meathods.

[Get Real!]

Must you ALL quote the ENTIRE Erol post every time??? Just quote the first line please to indicate what you're referring to followed by your comment. What are you newbies?

And, yet there seems to be a bit missing from the end, which I am sure said something about it being erolz's last post because this forum did not suit his purpose or something.

Where's the end bit gone

Pip-pip
Phoenix

Erol has already gone... ...to tonight's forum meeting!

No, there's no reason for Erol to go, all he needs is a break and to cut down on quantity.

[EPSILON]

When the me report says directly the following then your interpretations are not needed. You have been doing then what you are doing now, and what you have been doing since the 50s. As if there is any doubt about what your aim is.

Very god posting, I do not repeat whole since is already repeated several times.

There are however some points which must be underlined and clarified.

You said since the 50s.!!!Is not practical or even fair to evaluate a situation without to take into account the circumstances under which some historical events took place.

Lets go to the atmosphere of 50s.Cyprus under the control of Britsh and after long and hard efforts of the Greek population of the Island (Turkey had no interest about Cyprus since it sold same to British, accepting no right or interest on the Island) to obtain their freedom and guide their Island where their soul requested them started an armed fight against the British Empire.

The enemy was the occupator and the fights were not involving any Tc until 1956 when the British employed almoast 2500 Tcs to fight against the Gcs.As you can easily understand when you are fighting for your freedom anybody who is helping the enemy and particularly by guns became a target of your fight since he is a part of the occupation forces.

The 2500Tcs by guides and orders of British ,started , for first time, to kill Gcs who were fighting for their freedom- It was that time when Tcs became a part of the problems which Gcs had to face in their effort for Union with Greece- Needeless to say that Union with Greece was not an important factor for Tcs before 50s.

The creation of TMT and other terrorist teams by Tcs prolonged the fights even after the agreements of 60s.In the meantime Turkey started to play a more deap role in the story.

concluson:The Cyprus problem as it is appears today is a result of the rejection of the will of the majority of the Island to decide for their destiny.

The problem created for reasons simple as above-Cyprus problem in regard to its creation is very simple but became very complecated in regard to its solution

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

Needless to say people like Piratis will turn on the old 'Propaganda' tune and turn up the full volume.

Now he has it from the 'horses mouth' so to speak.

Clerides was respected by quite a few TCs for his honesty. I am sure he will reveal more when his biography is completed. I suggest Piratis and co get a copy. If it has already been published I will get my copy straight away. I hope it is in English.
Do you think Piratis considers Clerides as a traitor? I wonder.

Excellent work here ErolZ
Regards

Yeah, how many Turkish or Turkish Cypriot Clerides' are there? Not many, because Turkey is THAT corupt that it wont allow any of its citizens to speak out against the government.

If i could be f****d to diasect Erolz post bit by bit i would but its just a waste of time.

Again, Erolz does not ask what affect the 300 year Ottoman oppression HAD, of the Turkish Cypriot siding with the oppressive British Empire HAD...or what effect the British Empire HAD on the rest of the world. You dont ask what affect Turkish Cypriot casting the first stone against innocent Greek Cypriots HAD, or Turkish Cypriots looting Cypriot shops whilst the racist British government put a curfew on Greek Cypriots HAD, or Turkish Cypriots driving Armenian Cypriots from their quarter of Nicosia HAD. You dont ask what the immoral constitution forced on the Greek Cypriots HAD, or the fact that we had been under oppression by the Turks and then the British AND then STILL not allowed to democratically vote for our destiny.

Erolz also says that the Cypriot so-called independence was only given to Cyprus because the international community accepted what he calls illegality of causing violance....and he says that 'this is clear'! What a stupid comment to make. Are we to think that all the freedom fighters in the world are acting illegally. Erolz has often said that the Greek War of Independence was wrong and the Greek should have waited for the Turks to grant the freedom, whilst chopping off a load more innocent heads on the way. This Erolz guy is an imperialist. He has no respect for morality but seems to side on the bully and the big empires. He applauds oppression and poverty and when it is fought against he calls it 'illegal.

Like i said in a different post, he seems to think that bringing the Turkish Cypriots rights into line with the rest of Cyprus' communities is just as bad as Turkey and Turkish Cypriots then commiting ethnic cleansing and mass murder.

If you think his views are a great post then i hope there is a war soon against immoral theives such as yourselves.

[Get Real!]

Must you ALL quote the ENTIRE Erol post every time??? Just quote the first line please to indicate what you're referring to followed by your comment. What are you newbies?

I think it is one of the best posts made on this forum and apparently many people think very highly of it aswell. In case it bothers you or in case you did not notice it as much as you should here it is again; read it and weep :

Erol is not infallible so please be patient until we all read and analyze what he has written and respond. I've only read the first paragraph so far and you should also expect responses from Piratis and hopefully Kifeas.

Patience for I sense a storm coming...