Cyprus-Forum.com

[T_C]

Me too!

Well said erolz!!

[Get Real!]

Murataga,

What you quoted is baby English…

“The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them enormous.”

But the real thing makes sense…

“The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them onerous.”

The word “kinds” in the sentence is KEY here so what comes after that must describe one or more of those kinds such as the “onerous kind” but whoever heard of the “enormous kind” when describing hardships???

Now do you see why we insist on providing links to quotes or NOT use them at all? As it turned out you did not have the source or a link and you ended up misquoting from your infamous “notes”!

I honestly hope this doesn’t happen again because it’s very ONEROUS (pun intended) having to write up all these posts explaining how and why you goofed.

[zan]

When the same report says directly the following then your interpretations are not needed. You have been doing then what you are doing now, and what you have been doing since the 50s. As if there is any doubt about what your aim is.

It is not an interpretation to know that ingnoring ones own consitutional court rulings is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that ignoring ones own constitution is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that setting up armed bands of ethnic thugs used to kill and intimidate innocent TC is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that Clerides demands to unilateral non negotiable changes to the agreed consitution in favour of GC and to the detrmiment of TC, before he would 'allow' TC to take up their legal government positions, was illegal. They were all clearly illegal - but that does not matter if illegalites benefit GC. Illegality only matters if GC lose, then it is the single and only important thing.

You do not ask the reequired questions, if your goal is objective understanding of what occured and why, as to WHY the TC leadership pursued such a policy and more importantly WHY it was able to gain so much support from it from ordianary TC. You do not ask this question because it involves looking at YOUR communites actions and responsibilites. So you just do not do it. You do not ask what effect on support for seperation amongst ordianary TC the GC communities pursuist of the ethnic divisive and exculding objective of enosis had. You do not ask what role the post 60's GC leaderships refusal to implement that which had previously agreed had. What effect the illegal refusal to abide by consituional court rulings had. What affect appointing a vicious racist thug like Yiorjardis to the interior ministry had. What effect his romaing bands of ethnic killers had. What effect driving TC from their homes at gunpoint and burning the hoes after they left had. The reason you ignore all of these questions is that you have no interest in objective understanding , only in propaganda.

If you had any complaints then why you didn't take RoC to international courts? Why there are no UN resolutions or anything of that sort placing the blame on the GCs as you do? (in the same way that UN declared your pseudo state as legally invalid)

There was no 'international court' that had jusrisdiction and could stop your leaderships illegalites. Your leadership knew this. They knew that the only thing that could ultimatley stop their illegalites was Turkey. If you think the TC community could have challenged and stopped these illegalites at the ECHR at that time it just shows you know nothing of the history of the ECHR.

I have to add here that as Makarios used the situation, that he and his thugs created in the first place through the Akritas plan, to get themselves recognised as the legal government so that the UN could come in as a peace keeping force, they only needed us to take them to court for the proccess to be final. This would have meant that we would have recognised them as the sole government of the island as well so they would win which ever way this went. For this reason alone we could not and can not take them to court and why the "RoC" cannot allow us back into government. As soon as that happens that court cases will start.

Apparently Erolz you want to be the Judge, but sorry you are not. You can have any opinion you want, but you can not decide what is legal and what is not based on your own interpretations.

But Clerides in 65 could be Judge and just decide

14.The Government position was that certain
provisions of the constitution which conferred a special status
on the Turkish Cypriot community could no longer be considered as
being in effect;

and

Finally,
Mr.Clerides stated that unless the Turkish Cypriot members
accepted the conditions laid down by him, he found it pointless
to supply to them copies of the pending bills.­

and

However, since the Government
had stated that it no longer recognized Dr. Kuchuk in his capacity as
Vice-President, this latter provision of the constitution was
inapplicable in practice.­

and

He [clerides] made
it plain that, unless agreement was reached on these matters, he
would not permit the Turkish Cypriot members to attend the House.
Mr.Clerides also stated that the constitutional provisions
concerning promulgation of the laws by the President and the
Vice-President were no longer applicable. He subsequently stated
that in his opinion the Turkish Cypriot members had no legal
standing any more in the House.­

It is because the GC leadership showed its DETERMINATION to do as it liked with NO REGARD for legality in its pursuit of illegaly removing the TC communites rights that those TC elements that wanted division as a politcal ideal were able to gain so much support from ordianry TC.

Having acted in the most clearly illegal was the GC leadership was then rewarded for it's illegalites and violence and aggression by the international community with 'recognition'. It was rewarded with such because it was expedient to the world powers at the time to do so, not because such was just or legal. This is clear. So havin gained a massive advantage through the use of illegality and the rewarding of such by the international community placing self interest and expediency pefore justic and international leglaity, you now lecture the TC about ignoring legality and seeking to gain back what was stolen from it , by the SAME meathods - the use of powerful states willingness to place their own self interests before internaional legality and justice.

If you want a solution based on purely legality then you have to address ALL the illegalites, not just ours. If you want to try and keep what you stole illegaly from us and was allowed to steal by powerful states putting their own self interests before legality , then do not expect us to use the SAME meathods.

Excellent post erolz. There are those that cannot see past there noses here and those that do not want to. Piratis is both.

[Murataga]

Murataga,

What you quoted is baby English…

“The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them enormous.”

But the real thing makes sense…

“The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them onerous.”

The word “kinds” in the sentence is KEY here so what comes after that must describe one or more of those kinds such as the “onerous kind” but whoever heard of the “enormous kind” when describing hardships???

Now do you see why we insist on providing links to quotes or NOT use them at all? As it turned out you did not have the source or a link and you ended up misquoting from your infamous “notes”!

I honestly hope this doesn’t happen again because it’s very ONEROUS (pun intended) having to write up all these posts explaining how and why you goofed.

Great than - now you have the onerous version as opposed to the enormous version . Now for the sixth time - answer the the following:

U.N. Secretary General`s report S/6426 of June 1965
"104. The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them enormous. These include restrictions on the freedom of movement of civilians, economic restrictions, the unavailability of some essential public services, and the sufferings of refugees."

Murataga's woes continue...

Here's the actual piece in S/6426...

104.The Turkish Cypriot population has continued
to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them
onerous. These include restrictions on the freedom of movement of
civilians, economic restrictions, the unavailability of some
essential public services, and the sufferings of refugees.
UNFICYP efforts toward a return to normal conditions have been
designed, among other things, to help in doing away with these
disabilities, affecting one section of the country's population,
and to enable ordinary Cypriots to go about their lawful pursuits
and live their normal lives without fear of violence or
discrimination.

Murataga has changed the word onerous which is just another word for “arduous” or “tedious” into enormous!!!

You gotta be kidding me

Oh by the way... I haven`t done any changes from the original report or during typing them here, at least not intentionally. Perhaps what you are writing has been misquoted, I don`t know, because according to your criteria it is not the full and originallly provided SG report. But even at that let`s assume that it was my mistake. Here is “onerous” for you:

definition from webster: difficult to endure
synonym from webster: oppressive

But even putting this aside, SOME of the diffuclties are even elaborated so propagandists like you can`t pervert on words:

...restrictions on the freedom of movement of
civilians, economic restrictions, the unavailability of some
essential public services, and the sufferings of refugees

Here is what I had for you before you ran off :

You mean supplied like this - from opinionated GC resources masked as U.N. documents?

Ok, well thanks to Erol I now have a copy of United Nations Operation in Cyprus document S/6426 from which I quote these relevant sections…

INTRODUCTION

1.I have the honour to submit to the Security
Council this report on the United Nations Operation in Cyprus,
covering developments from 11 March to 10 June 1965, and bringing
up to date the record of United Nations activities under the
mandate laid down by the Security Council in its resolution of 4
March 1964 and subsequently extended (see chapter 1,section B).

III. ACTIVITIES TOWARD A RETURN TO NORMAL CONDITIONS

106.The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to
rigid stand against any measures which might involve having
members of the two communities live and work together, or which
might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have
to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since
the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and
geographical separation of the communities as a political goal,
it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots
which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an
alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate
policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots. The
Government contends that the hardships suffered by the Turkish
Cypriot population are the direct result of the leadership's
self-isolation policy, imposed by force on the rank and file. The
Turkish Cypriots assert that these hardships are designed by the
Government to pressure the Turkish community into submission and
to destroy politically and that Turkish Cypriots are at one in
their determination to resist.

Sorry Murataga, you fought hard and well but this battle is also over.

Apparently we are having a difficult time in communicating here. So I`ll help you find your own way out of this:

1) Where and when did I ever claim your quote to be false although at no point until erolz posted it here you had the original/complete SG report ?

2) Did I not consider your quote to be factual at all times and explained to you what it meant, to which you have still made no reply?

3) Did you, until erolz posted it here have the original/complete report ? And although you did not, did/do you ask me to make quotes if I can only provide the original whole SG report?

4) Is what you just posted above and what erolz provided, NOT SCANNED FROM THE ORIGINAL + NOT COMPLETE + AND ONLY IN DIGITAL TYPING (WHICH COULD BE PREPARED BY ANYONE WITH A KEYBOARD), hence according to the criteria you are putting ahead of me is unqualified ?

There is no fighting, there is only you humiliating yourself but take your time because I am really enjoying it

Planning to provide any explanation ? Or better yet planning to adress what you yourself have started to quote now, which was what I had quoted to begin with and you called it, let me see...

Funny how all the above pieces you’ve “quoted” are written in GARBAGE English and some don’t even make sense. These are NOT parts of any UN reports like you claim Murataga but manufactured crap.

Anyone who has ever read a UN report would’ve noticed the strong command of English and IMPARTIAL style with which it is written unlike your junk!

So what gives? Why are you so shameless?

So right back at you:

So what gives? Why are you so shameless?

[Get Real!]

Great than - now you have the onerous version as opposed to the enormous version . Now for the sixth time - answer the the following:

No problemo Murataga but if you don't mind I would first like to respond to Erol's BIG post which is much more urgent right now...

[Murataga]

Murataga,

What you quoted is baby English…

“The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them enormous.”

But the real thing makes sense…

“The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them onerous.”

The word “kinds” in the sentence is KEY here so what comes after that must describe one or more of those kinds such as the “onerous kind” but whoever heard of the “enormous kind” when describing hardships???

Now do you see why we insist on providing links to quotes or NOT use them at all? As it turned out you did not have the source or a link and you ended up misquoting from your infamous “notes”!

I honestly hope this doesn’t happen again because it’s very ONEROUS (pun intended) having to write up all these posts explaining how and why you goofed.

Here are some examples "baby english" for you using enormous hardhips

(official web page of the house of Representatives of the United States)
http://www.house.gov/list/hearing/nj01_ ... 20_07.html

(ooficial web page of Human rights Watch)
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=usa_noncitizens

[Murataga]

Great than - now you have the onerous version as opposed to the enormous version . Now for the sixth time - answer the the following:

No problemo Murataga but if you don't mind I would first like to respond to Erol's BIG post which is much more urgent right now...

The most urgent thing you need to be addressing is your self-inflicted humiliation. I`ve seen you in difficult positions in this forum but this thread tops it all. Your skin has been pealed right off of you

[zan]

When the same report says directly the following then your interpretations are not needed. You have been doing then what you are doing now, and what you have been doing since the 50s. As if there is any doubt about what your aim is.

It is not an interpretation to know that ingnoring ones own consitutional court rulings is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that ignoring ones own constitution is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that setting up armed bands of ethnic thugs used to kill and intimidate innocent TC is illegal. It is not interpretation to know that Clerides demands to unilateral non negotiable changes to the agreed consitution in favour of GC and to the detrmiment of TC, before he would 'allow' TC to take up their legal government positions, was illegal. They were all clearly illegal - but that does not matter if illegalites benefit GC. Illegality only matters if GC lose, then it is the single and only important thing.

You do not ask the reequired questions, if your goal is objective understanding of what occured and why, as to WHY the TC leadership pursued such a policy and more importantly WHY it was able to gain so much support from it from ordianary TC. You do not ask this question because it involves looking at YOUR communites actions and responsibilites. So you just do not do it. You do not ask what effect on support for seperation amongst ordianary TC the GC communities pursuist of the ethnic divisive and exculding objective of enosis had. You do not ask what role the post 60's GC leaderships refusal to implement that which had previously agreed had. What effect the illegal refusal to abide by consituional court rulings had. What affect appointing a vicious racist thug like Yiorjardis to the interior ministry had. What effect his romaing bands of ethnic killers had. What effect driving TC from their homes at gunpoint and burning the hoes after they left had. The reason you ignore all of these questions is that you have no interest in objective understanding , only in propaganda.

If you had any complaints then why you didn't take RoC to international courts? Why there are no UN resolutions or anything of that sort placing the blame on the GCs as you do? (in the same way that UN declared your pseudo state as legally invalid)

There was no 'international court' that had jusrisdiction and could stop your leaderships illegalites. Your leadership knew this. They knew that the only thing that could ultimatley stop their illegalites was Turkey. If you think the TC community could have challenged and stopped these illegalites at the ECHR at that time it just shows you know nothing of the history of the ECHR.

I have to add here that as Makarios used the situation, that he and his thugs created in the first place through the Akritas plan, to get themselves recognised as the legal government so that the UN could come in as a peace keeping force, they only needed us to take them to court for the proccess to be final. This would have meant that we would have recognised them as the sole government of the island as well so they would win which ever way this went. For this reason alone we could not and can not take them to court and why the "RoC" cannot allow us back into government. As soon as that happens that court cases will start.

Apparently Erolz you want to be the Judge, but sorry you are not. You can have any opinion you want, but you can not decide what is legal and what is not based on your own interpretations.

But Clerides in 65 could be Judge and just decide

14.The Government position was that certain
provisions of the constitution which conferred a special status
on the Turkish Cypriot community could no longer be considered as
being in effect;

and

Finally,
Mr.Clerides stated that unless the Turkish Cypriot members
accepted the conditions laid down by him, he found it pointless
to supply to them copies of the pending bills.­

and

However, since the Government
had stated that it no longer recognized Dr. Kuchuk in his capacity as
Vice-President, this latter provision of the constitution was
inapplicable in practice.­

and

He [clerides] made
it plain that, unless agreement was reached on these matters, he
would not permit the Turkish Cypriot members to attend the House.
Mr.Clerides also stated that the constitutional provisions
concerning promulgation of the laws by the President and the
Vice-President were no longer applicable. He subsequently stated
that in his opinion the Turkish Cypriot members had no legal
standing any more in the House.­

It is because the GC leadership showed its DETERMINATION to do as it liked with NO REGARD for legality in its pursuit of illegaly removing the TC communites rights that those TC elements that wanted division as a politcal ideal were able to gain so much support from ordianry TC.

Having acted in the most clearly illegal was the GC leadership was then rewarded for it's illegalites and violence and aggression by the international community with 'recognition'. It was rewarded with such because it was expedient to the world powers at the time to do so, not because such was just or legal. This is clear. So havin gained a massive advantage through the use of illegality and the rewarding of such by the international community placing self interest and expediency pefore justic and international leglaity, you now lecture the TC about ignoring legality and seeking to gain back what was stolen from it , by the SAME meathods - the use of powerful states willingness to place their own self interests before internaional legality and justice.

If you want a solution based on purely legality then you have to address ALL the illegalites, not just ours. If you want to try and keep what you stole illegaly from us and was allowed to steal by powerful states putting their own self interests before legality , then do not expect us to use the SAME meathods.

Excellent post erolz. There are those that cannot see past there noses here and those that do not want to. Piratis is both.

Lest we forget

[Get Real!]

You do not ask the reequired questions, if your goal is objective understanding of what occured and why, as to WHY the TC leadership pursued such a policy and more importantly WHY it was able to gain so much support from it from ordianary TC. You do not ask this question because it involves looking at YOUR communites actions and responsibilites. So you just do not do it. You do not ask what effect on support for seperation amongst ordianary TC the GC communities pursuist of the ethnic divisive and exculding objective of enosis had. You do not ask what role the post 60's GC leaderships refusal to implement that which had previously agreed had. What effect the illegal refusal to abide by consituional court rulings had. What affect appointing a vicious racist thug like Yiorjardis to the interior ministry had. What effect his romaing bands of ethnic killers had. What effect driving TC from their homes at gunpoint and burning the hoes after they left had. The reason you ignore all of these questions is that you have no interest in objective understanding , only in propaganda.

“Support” can be EASILY attained from a predominantly uneducated minority via very basic manipulation techniques… no big deal here Erol.

If you had “objective understanding” of the TC community’s role dear Erol you would’ve been able to see the GREATER PICTURE by simplifying the overall situation on Cyprus which is very easy to do:

1. Majority GC 80%
2. Minority TC 18%

Now tell me, if you were the leader of this 18% minority what ADVICE would you give them if the ultimate goal intended for them was to survive and prosper?

Would it be for them to smuggle weapons into the country and take on the 80%?

Would it be to get Turkey to invade and do whatever she did in 74 with the subsequent repercussions?

Going right back to whichever year you like what advice would you have given them Erol?

PS: On a different note, I appreciate your stay here and hope that we’ll have many more debates and meetings in the future although I can’t make the one tonight.

[Get Real!]

Lest we forget

Zan... where have you disappeared to lately? Just wondering... does "McTurk" ring any bells?