Cyprus-Forum.com

[Piratis]

The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to
rigid stand against any measures which might involve having
members of the two communities live and work together, or which
might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have
to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since
the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and
geographical separation of the communities as a political goal,
it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots
which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an
alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate
policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots. The
Government contends that the hardships suffered by the Turkish
Cypriot population are the direct result of the leadership's
self-isolation policy, imposed by force on the rank and file. The
Turkish Cypriots assert that these hardships are designed by the
Government to pressure the Turkish community into submission and
to destroy politically and that Turkish Cypriots are at one in
their determination to resist.

Just look at how TCs are acting today. They are acting against the state trying to enforce their illegal aim of partition by force, as a result of that they face some consequences, and for them return to legality equals "submission".

Are you sure this report is from 1964 and not 2007?

[Murataga]

if the like of Murataga lecture at uni ....... Cyprus is is in deep shit and it can never swim out of it.

I do not lecture at a university and no one has said or implied anything like that. But given that racist crime promoters like you call themselves "humanist" I guess anything is possible - what do you think ?

[repulsewarrior]

One State, and two National Assemblies; three governments, bi-communal.

We could agree to that, as long as the Zone(s) given to TC control would include only areas where the TCs are the legal majority, and not places like Kerynia, Karavas, Lapithos, Rizokarpaso, Morfou and many many other places where they have always been inhabited by a GC majority.

Thank-you Piratis, I consider this a big step. I hope that others will post a comment as well.

[Murataga]

The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to
rigid stand against any measures which might involve having
members of the two communities live and work together, or which
might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have
to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since
the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and
geographical separation of the communities as a political goal,
it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots
which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an
alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate
policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots. The
Government contends that the hardships suffered by the Turkish
Cypriot population are the direct result of the leadership's
self-isolation policy, imposed by force on the rank and file. The
Turkish Cypriots assert that these hardships are designed by the
Government to pressure the Turkish community into submission and
to destroy politically and that Turkish Cypriots are at one in
their determination to resist.

Just look at how TCs are acting today. They are acting against the state trying to enforce their illegal aim of partition by force, as a result of that they face some consequences, and for them return to legality equals "submission".

Are you sure this report is from 1964 and not 2007?

U.N. Secretary General`s report S/8286 of December 1967

"126. When disturbances broke out in December 1963 and continued in the first part of 1964, thousands of Turkish Cypriots fled from their homes, taking with them only what they could drive or carry, and sought refuge in what they considered to be safer Turkish Cypriot villages and areas.
The refusal of the Greek Cypriot authorities to allow the Turkish Cypriot refugees to return to their homes in conditions of safety, effectively frusturated persistent Turkish efforts to rehabilitate them. They also obstructed attempts to improve their living conditions"

U.N. Secretary General`s report S/6426 of June 1965

"104. The Turkish Cypriot population has continued to be subject to hardships of various kinds, some of them enormous. These include restrictions on the freedom of movement of civilians, economic restrictions, the unavailability of some essential public services, and the sufferings of refugees."

U.N. Secretary General`s report S/5950 of September 1964

"180. UNIFCYP carried out a detailed survery of all damage to properties throughout the island during the disturbances, including the Tyllria fighting. It shows that in 109 villages, most of them Turkish Cypriot or mixed villages, 527 houses have been destroyed while 2000 others have suffered damage from looting. ... In many Turkish villages, crowded by the arrival of displaced persons, there is an acute shortage of medical facilities."

[Piratis]

Thank-you Piratis, I consider this a big step. I hope that others will post a comment as well.

No problem. I am personally very flexible as long as the main principles of democracy and human rights are adhered, and in the case of federation the land distribution is fair and proportional. Some others here are not flexible at all though. They want it exactly their own way, even if their own way is not based on such principles.

[erolz]

Lot's of selective quoting of the same old passage from the UN doc I made available.

The most interesting part of this doc to me is the last section detailing the TC leaderships attempts to return to their legal and valid government positions and the illegal unilateral non negotiable pre conditions demanded by the GC leadership before they would 'allow' such a return which would have illegaly removed their legal consitutional rights, all from the SG report (or is that from his mouth / typewritter?). Now after all that has happened some GC will say 'let's return' to the 60's agreements. Yeah about 40 years to late AND not something your current leadership would accept anyway.

Pretty much destroys the simple myth that the TC leadership voluntarily left the RoC government to pursue partition aims.

[denizaksulu]

Lot's of selective quoting of the same old passage from the UN doc I made available.

The most interesting part of this doc to me is the last section detailing the TC leaderships attempts to return to their legal and valid government positions and the illegal unilateral non negotiable pre conditions demanded by the GC leadership before they would 'allow' such a return which would have illegaly removed their legal consitutional rights, all from the SG report (or is that from his mouth / typewritter?). Now after all that has happened some GC will say 'let's return' to the 60's agreements. Yeah about 40 years to late AND not something your current leadership would accept anyway.

Pretty much destroys the simple myth that the TC leadership voluntarily left the RoC government to pursue partition aims.

Murataga and erolz, you both are doing a good job on this topic. Bunlarin hepsi 'vurdum duymaz'.
Regards
DA

[Nikitas]

Piratis,

You invited comments on a solution based on one state, two national assemblies, three governments, bicommunal. Along with the legal majority qualification for areas were inhabited formerly by GC majority.

I might sound a bit cynical on this, but someone must say it: we must always include the possibility that the fedral solution is simply another step towards separation which was always the main thrust of Turkish policy on Cyprus. What if in the future the federated northern state finds, or makes, an excuse to break away from the federation? That possibility must be included in our plans until circumstances prove the other sides good faith.

My priorities would include a statement at constititutional level that the Turkish community gives up all claims to territory of the ISLAND of Cyprus beyond their allocattion through the federal solution. Any third party guarantees they seek cover only their federal state (component state call it what you will). Sovereign base areas burden the Greek federal state and Britain talks only to the Greek side re the bases. Britain cannot be a founding member of the federal state with rights in perpetuity over part of the island. If and when the bases leave their land reverts to the Greek state.

My preference is for unitary, contiguous territory and not bits and pieces spread all over.

Territorial allocations must take into account length of coastline (major resource in tourism), defensible borders, geographical features, property ownership and population proportions.

The EU aquis and human rights will apply with some exceptions (at least initially) since the insistence of communal security and the bicommunal/bizonal nature of the state make this necessary. There have been similar deviations from EU laws before. So each side will have its political rights on its own territory only. Residence will be allowed in the "other" federal state but not voting etc. So there would be no worries that Greeks would swamp the Turkish state by moving or having a second home there, and vice versa.

The overriding consideration for me is one of security, for both communities, true independence by keeping foreign influence to a minimum, prevention of future territorial conflict due to ambiguities, not allowing one community to hamper the other's progress, fostering benign and beneficial competition where cooperation is not possible. Providing a feeling to all that the compromise, though painful, is fair.

I am ruthless on the issue of settlers. They LEAVE. There are plenty of diaspora Cypriots who can be tempted to return if either side wants to increase its population. It is idiotic to negotiate for rights of illegal settlers when Cyprus has one third of its nationals living overseas! I would even be willing to grant overseas Turkish Cypriots voting rights without residence on the island rather than accept settler rights. Any consideration about the humanitarian aspect of settler expulsion is Turkey's problem.

[Nikitas]

A quick note to Erolz, Denizaktsulu, Murataga,

Expulsion of all non Turkish Cypriots from Turkish Cypriot areas started way before 1963. It was not so much a policy of partition as of exclusion. In 1958 Turkish miliatia men prevented even Greek garbage disposal men from entering Turkish areas. The slogan in those days was "we want Greek busniness, we don't want the Greeks".

THis is not to excuse the political blunders of the Greek side. But let us keep a sense of perspective here about the political aims of each side in the past.

The Turkish approach throughout the British occupation was one of not wanting to be identified with the other side. It was a miscalculation on many levels. Christopher Hitchens calls it "a colonial attitude towards the Greek Cypriots". It was one of the many fuck ups in Cyprus history. We have a rich culture of fuck ups on both sides.

The Greek side, both in Greece and in Cyprus, has had an open debate about its past Enosis oriented policy and has freed itself from that ghost. It is about time to have one on your side folks.

[Piratis]

Lot's of selective quoting of the same old passage from the UN doc I made available.

The most interesting part of this doc to me is the last section detailing the TC leaderships attempts to return to their legal and valid government positions and the illegal unilateral non negotiable pre conditions demanded by the GC leadership before they would 'allow' such a return which would have illegaly removed their legal consitutional rights, all from the SG report (or is that from his mouth / typewritter?). Now after all that has happened some GC will say 'let's return' to the 60's agreements. Yeah about 40 years to late AND not something your current leadership would accept anyway.

Pretty much destroys the simple myth that the TC leadership voluntarily left the RoC government to pursue partition aims.

When the same report says directly the following then your interpretations are not needed. You have been doing then what you are doing now, and what you have been doing since the 50s. As if there is any doubt about what your aim is.

The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to
rigid stand against any measures which might involve having
members of the two communities live and work together, or which
might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have
to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since
the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and
geographical separation of the communities as a political goal,
it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots
which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an
alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate
policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots.

Isn't this exactly what you are doing now as well?

If you had any complaints then why you didn't take RoC to international courts? Why there are no UN resolutions or anything of that sort placing the blame on the GCs as you do? (in the same way that UN declared your pseudo state as legally invalid)

Apparently Erolz you want to be the Judge, but sorry you are not. You can have any opinion you want, but you can not decide what is legal and what is not based on your own interpretations.