Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

Furthermore I had the goodwill to listen and discuss your diversions from democracy and accepted that in order to satisfy you we could agree to some such diversions if you would also agree to some strong safeguards that would make it impossible for TCs to abuse those diversions, or even worst use them to achieve partition. You rejected the safeguards I asked for, you said you would come back with alternative solutions but you never did.

In other words Erol, Piratis looked at your case with all the skill of a professional social worker handling an adult delinquent and yet you are still incorrigible!

[Murataga]

I explained to you the situation on the Secretary General`s quotes I presented;

You know the "rules" Murataga... no evidence no cookie! It's fair and square and you can't expect me to take your word for it that the quotes exist in some book in some University in Turkey! That's not how we fight it out and I'm sure you know it by now.

(1) It is not from a university library - it is from the main State library in the capital of Turkey and it is from the hardcopies of the exact documents that I personally took notes from (2) I am sorry that you can`t take my word for it because it is simply inconvenient. But that does not change the fact that (a) it is factual (b)that you initially made an embarassing mistake of calling the English in them inaccurate (3) From that standpoint the quote of the SG you showed is from a GC source and I did not refuse it but explained to you what it meant - planning to reciprocate about the ones I quoted any time soon? (4) But overlooking all of these, I made you an offer which you still haven`t answered regarding bringing here the original hardcopies of these long documents - which as I explained is something I had to do before as part of my studies in the past so it is possible. Still waiting for your answer.

Did you make any posts perhaps I missed for ending your embarassment?

You mean you didn't see Erol self-destruct? Didn't you see the fireworks? Go back and read it.

All I saw was erolz smashing you to the ground when he skillfully: (1) explained to you that SG did not write or say personally the quote as claimed in your criminal GC regime reference, but only submitted the report, produced and written by the head of UNFICYP (2) showed that you tried to pass off here the overall document containing this quote as that of a one deserving praise and credibility when it is nothing but propaganda prepared by your criminal leadership under the usurped title of RoC - of which you probably had absolutely no idea about.

Now one more time:

Did you make any posts perhaps I missed for ending your embarassment?

[repulsewarrior]

Erolz, I think we said all we had to say about democracy. What I want is what exists in all other democratic countries many of which are multi-ethnic, many of which had conflicts between them much worst than ours, and yet the unit of democracy (in countries) is always the citizen, and never the ethnic group. The only example you could provide for what you want is the EU, which is not a country, but an association of separate and independent countries, who have the right to leave this association whenever they feel like. As I explained to you earlier (and you didn't reply to it) if the relationship that you want between TCs and GCs is the one that exists between Spanish and Polish then what you want is clearly partition. What we want is one country kind of unification and democracy as it exists within all other democratic countries, and not the association of two separate and independent parts of Cyprus so we can be "united" with the north part of our country in the same way we are now united with Estonia within EU.

Democracies do not separate people between ethnic groups. If they do that (e.g. South Africa of Apartheid) then it is NOT a true democracy. What exists to protect and give an effective voice to all citizens are things like human rights, minority rights and affirmative action. And I would accept if we use those democratic procedures to the max for the benefit of TCs. I have even gone to such degree to propose that 1 every 5 presidents to be a TC, on top of the guaranteed proportional representation of TCs at all levels of the government. Thats something given to no ethnic group in any country, but still not enough for you.

Furthermore I had the goodwill to listen and discuss your diversions from democracy and accepted that in order to satisfy you we could agree to some such diversions if you would also agree to some strong safeguards that would make it impossible for TCs to abuse those diversions, or even worst use them to achieve partition. You rejected the safeguards I asked for, you said you would come back with alternative solutions but you never did.

Here is a quote from Sevgul that describes how TCs view "unification" and as a result "democracy".

The main problem concerning `reunification` of the island for the mainstream Turkish Cypriot media is that it is subconsciously based on `two separate entities coming together`, not seeing that this is a remnant of `Taksim` policies… The focus is on `Bizonality` and with this, the `legitimization` of `the results of 1974`… No one is contesting that any future cooperation of our communities should be based on multiculturalism, rather than on the `hegemony` of the Greek Cypriot community in all fields… But how `bizonality` is perceived is a big problem because deep down, the ideology of `Taksim` is still there and has not been wiped out from the subconscious thinking of `duality` and `separatism` from the minds of some mainstream Turkish Cypriot journalists.

The TCs need to accept a true unification and a true democracy as it exists in all COUNTRIES if we will ever find a solution.

If what they label as "unification" and as "democracy" is modeled after the relationship between the sovereign and independent EU countries, so GCs and TCs can be "united" in the way that Italians and British are within EU, then obviously the gap between us is huge and we will never reach a peaceful agreement since the TCs have not yet abandoned their criminal aim of partitioning Cyprus and Turkifying the north part of it.

Well said...

One State, and two National Assemblies; three governments, bi-communal.

Enclaves in each of the two parts; thus, each Zone comprised of many pieces.
Allowing for the Right of Return for both communities, as communities, and homes, not houses, for the Settlers. Allowing for reciprocal acts of recognition and respect for minorities by both these peoples.

[erolz]

So what you're saying is that the RoC MANUFACTURED a quote allegedly SPOKEN by the Secretary-General of the UN and then sent it to this same Secretary-General for his perusal???

THey did not manufacture it but they are econimcal with the truth in prestning the contents of S/6426 as a quote from the secretary general. I have s/6426 here in front of me right now.
The RoC core document they wrote and subnitted to the UN is dated 23 July 1998. The UNFICYP report S/6426 is dated 10 June 1965.

I can assure you that the SG of the UN was NOT the same person in 65 as he was in 98, so laugh all you like GR but the facts as ever remain the same.

[Piratis]

Murataga, can you give us the whole reports that you refer to? (like Get Real did) Or the Turkish propaganda only supplied you with the tiny parts that suit you?

What Murataga does is a classic form of propaganda:

The most effective propaganda is often completely truthful, but some propaganda presents facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented.

This is why I always insist that if we are going to appropriate blame based on what happened in the past then we should see the whole picture and the chain of events. However the whole truth doesn't suit TCs. This is why they selectively choose a tiny part of our past by ignoring everything that happened before and excusing everything that happened after. Even worst, even during that small part they keep talking about and exaggerate by a factor of 100 to make it sound more than what it really was, they again employ their usual selective propaganda in an effort to blame GCs exclusively for it, ignoring or excusing their own mistakes, crimes and responsibilities.

Sorry Murataga but your lame propaganda can not pass. You might continue with crimes and illegalities against us, just like you have done since the day you set your foot on this island (with only a short brake) because you have the military power to do so, but your crimes can not be excused no matter how much propaganda you produce.

What you do in Cyprus is criminal and illegal and your propaganda will not help you to legalize it no matter how much you dream about it. The northern part of Cyprus, just like the rest of Cyprus, is the homeland of 5+ times more GCs than TCs and no matter how much brute force and lame excuses you use, you will never manage to Turkify it.

[Murataga]

Erolz, I think we said all we had to say about democracy. What I want is what exists in all other democratic countries many of which are multi-ethnic, many of which had conflicts between them much worst than ours, and yet the unit of democracy (in countries) is always the citizen, and never the ethnic group. The only example you could provide for what you want is the EU, which is not a country, but an association of separate and independent countries, who have the right to leave this association whenever they feel like. As I explained to you earlier (and you didn't reply to it) if the relationship that you want between TCs and GCs is the one that exists between Spanish and Polish then what you want is clearly partition. What we want is one country kind of unification and democracy as it exists within all other democratic countries, and not the association of two separate and independent parts of Cyprus so we can be "united" with the north part of our country in the same way we are now united with Estonia within EU.

Democracies do not separate people between ethnic groups. If they do that (e.g. South Africa of Apartheid) then it is NOT a true democracy. What exists to protect and give an effective voice to all citizens are things like human rights, minority rights and affirmative action. And I would accept if we use those democratic procedures to the max for the benefit of TCs. I have even gone to such degree to propose that 1 every 5 presidents to be a TC, on top of the guaranteed proportional representation of TCs at all levels of the government. Thats something given to no ethnic group in any country, but still not enough for you.

Furthermore I had the goodwill to listen and discuss your diversions from democracy and accepted that in order to satisfy you we could agree to some such diversions if you would also agree to some strong safeguards that would make it impossible for TCs to abuse those diversions, or even worst use them to achieve partition. You rejected the safeguards I asked for, you said you would come back with alternative solutions but you never did.

Here is a quote from Sevgul that describes how TCs view "unification" and as a result "democracy".

The main problem concerning `reunification` of the island for the mainstream Turkish Cypriot media is that it is subconsciously based on `two separate entities coming together`, not seeing that this is a remnant of `Taksim` policies… The focus is on `Bizonality` and with this, the `legitimization` of `the results of 1974`… No one is contesting that any future cooperation of our communities should be based on multiculturalism, rather than on the `hegemony` of the Greek Cypriot community in all fields… But how `bizonality` is perceived is a big problem because deep down, the ideology of `Taksim` is still there and has not been wiped out from the subconscious thinking of `duality` and `separatism` from the minds of some mainstream Turkish Cypriot journalists.

The TCs need to accept a true unification and a true democracy as it exists in all COUNTRIES if we will ever find a solution.

If what they label as "unification" and as "democracy" is modeled after the relationship between the sovereign and independent EU countries, so GCs and TCs can be "united" in the way that Italians and British are within EU, then obviously the gap between us is huge and we will never reach a peaceful agreement since the TCs have not yet abandoned their criminal aim of partitioning Cyprus and Turkifying the north part of it.

No two countries are alike and none has the unique circumstances pertaining to the historical, cultural, ethnic and political situatioin in Cyprus. You are acting like you are the owners of the RoC where you are inviting a minority back home when Roc is nothing but a partnership state which you ejected the partner out by force. We have never been a minority in a country you established and what is even more striking is that you never had a country of of your own (a kingdom of a dynasty ruling the people at the most a millenium back). Given the unique circumstanes of Cyprus there are two communities and this is acknowledged by the rest of the world. Neither has ruled the other and enforcing the will/rule of one over the without any justification is nothing but an invasive action equivalent to tyranny. Given the unique circumstances of Cyprus your people acknowledged this and we signed in to establishing a partnership state being guaranteed that you adhere to what you signed. You did not. What is worse is that you have taken advantage of your status and usurped that partnership establishement in claim for more. You were permitted to establish the very state you stole in the first place because you recognized (apparently to misguide the rest of the world) that TCs are not a minority but your partner.

[Piratis]

No two countries are alike and none has the unique circumstances pertaining to the historical, cultural, ethnic and political situatioin in Cyprus.

Answer:

These elements define the fundamental elements of all modern democracies, no matter how varied in history, culture, and economy. Despite their enormous differences as nations and societies, the essential elements of constitutional government--majority rule coupled with individual and minority rights, and the rule of law--can be found in Canada and Costa Rica, France and Botswana, Japan and India.
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/w ... hatdm2.htm

There are many multi-ethnic countries and many of those had conflicts worst than ours. What I want is not something tailored to suit me (like you demand) but to establish in Cyprus a true democracy where the unit is the citizen, and where people are equal without being divided into groups based on religion, language, ethnic background, gender or anything else. Just like it happens in all other democratic countries.

If you want such divisions then move to South Africa. Oh, I forgot, Apartheid is over there as well!!

[Murataga]

Murataga, can you give us the whole reports that you refer to? (like Get Real did) Or the Turkish propaganda only supplied you with the tiny parts that suit you?

What Murataga does is a classic form of propaganda:

The most effective propaganda is often completely truthful, but some propaganda presents facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis, or gives loaded messages in order to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented.

This is why I always insist that if we are going to appropriate blame based on what happened in the past then we should see the whole picture and the chain of events. However the whole truth doesn't suit TCs. This is why they selectively choose a tiny part of our past by ignoring everything that happened before and excusing everything that happened after. Even worst, even during that small part they keep talking about and exaggerate by a factor of 100 to make it sound more than what it really was, they again employ their usual selective propaganda in an effort to blame GCs exclusively for it, ignoring or excusing their own mistakes, crimes and responsibilities.

Sorry Murataga but your lame propaganda can not pass. You might continue with crimes and illegalities against us, just like you have done since the day you set your foot on this island (with only a short brake) because you have the military power to do so, but your crimes can not be excused no matter how much propaganda you produce.

What you do in Cyprus is criminal and illegal and your propaganda will not help you to legalize it no matter how much you dream about it. The northern part of Cyprus, just like the rest of Cyprus, is the homeland of 5+ times more GCs than TCs and no matter how much brute force and lame excuses you use, you will never manage to Turkify it.

(1) Where has GR supplied the complete SG report ? Or are you talking about the GC criminal regimes fabricated text which got him in to trouble?

(2) The SG reports are very long as I`ve explained and was written in the 60s, i.e. not available online. I have explained how I`ve acquired them, go back and read the posts carefully.

(3) My quotes were put here as counter-arguement to claims that TCs were not attacked and ousted. The whole report is not exclusively relevant to the specific discussion of concern especially given that they range from 20-50 pages each in hardcopy.

(4) Overlooking all of these, I can tell you that from what I recall that the rest of the reports kept on describing the crimes you performed in general - as erolz elaborated with one of the SG reports he had available online (go back and read carefully). I`ve also made an offer, if you go back and read carefully, regardig the whole hardcopy documents. Feel free to answer it.

[Piratis]

One State, and two National Assemblies; three governments, bi-communal.

We could agree to that, as long as the Zone(s) given to TC control would include only areas where the TCs are the legal majority, and not places like Kerynia, Karavas, Lapithos, Rizokarpaso, Morfou and many many other places where they have always been inhabited by a GC majority.

[Murataga]

No two countries are alike and none has the unique circumstances pertaining to the historical, cultural, ethnic and political situatioin in Cyprus.

Answer:

These elements define the fundamental elements of all modern democracies, no matter how varied in history, culture, and economy. Despite their enormous differences as nations and societies, the essential elements of constitutional government--majority rule coupled with individual and minority rights, and the rule of law--can be found in Canada and Costa Rica, France and Botswana, Japan and India.
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/w ... hatdm2.htm

There are many multi-ethnic countries and many of those had conflicts worst than ours. What I want is not something tailored to suit me (like you demand) but to establish in Cyprus a true democracy where the unit is the citizen, and where people are equal without being divided into groups based on religion, language, ethnic background, gender or anything else. Just like it happens in all other democratic countries.

If you want such divisions then move to South Africa. Oh, I forgot, Apartheid is over there as well!!

Answer:

Democracy is the government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

-Abraham Lincoln

And in Cyprus there are two peoples which is acknowledged by the rest of the world. Neither has ruled the other or enforced the will of one over the other at any time in history - never. Attempting to enforce such atrocious conditions have nothing to do with democracy; it is an invasive action equivalent to tyranny by definition.

Tyranny (from webster dictionary): a rigorous condition imposed by some outside agency or force