Cyprus-Forum.com

[Get Real!]

No Erolz, I don't mean that and you know it.

[Pyrpolizer]

The next thing this guy Eroltz will do is quote Piratis' commas and fullstops , and then write a whole novel about it.

[Murataga]

MRFROMNG - Well done Murataga and Erolz for what? Wasting there time typing a load of bollocks. Who are they trying to kid? (apart from you of course).

Well snake, below is what I congratulated Murataga for. Every single word of his post is spot on. He very articulately explains to us all the GC kind of democracy. This would not be approved by the likes of you but trust me to the unbiased individual it will explain everything they need to know.

Once again I say well done Murataga.

Funny how you don't congratulate him about the bogus "UN documents" he constantly unashamedly presents!

Didn`t take your previous post on this seriously as I couldn`t imagine that you would go as far as denying them - apparently I was wrong.

I wrote down the quotes from the original documents at the main library in Ankara while attending college. The reports vary from 20-50 pages each. In addition to the main library in Ankara these documents are available in UN Dag Hammarskjöld Library and the Library of the UN Office at Geneva which I had to ask once for my studies. It is also quite possible that I can locate the reports here in the TRNc from the national archive or the MFAffairs. Is this what you want and if so what will you do to make it worth my while?

But all this aside what is of great amazement to me is that you have sunk so deep in your ocean of ego that instead of owning up to the crimes your people have committed you simply choose to deny U.N. reports claiming "faulty" English (which by the way the English is exactly as it is written in the original report). If people are prevented to go to their homes, if villages are attacked and people are murdered, how does simply stating this makes any document, let alone a one by the U.N., "partial". But I know the answer to this very well and so does anyone else who is familiar with your motives: it is because the document states your crimes and that is a reason good enough to deny it or stamp it as partial.

[Get Real!]

MRFROMNG - Well done Murataga and Erolz for what? Wasting there time typing a load of bollocks. Who are they trying to kid? (apart from you of course).

Well snake, below is what I congratulated Murataga for. Every single word of his post is spot on. He very articulately explains to us all the GC kind of democracy. This would not be approved by the likes of you but trust me to the unbiased individual it will explain everything they need to know.

Once again I say well done Murataga.

Funny how you don't congratulate him about the bogus "UN documents" he constantly unashamedly presents!

Didn`t take your previous post on this seriously as I couldn`t imagine that you would go as far as denying them - apparently I was wrong.

I wrote down the quotes from the original documents at the main library in Ankara while attending college. The reports vary from 20-50 pages each. In addition to the main library in Ankara these documents are available in UN Dag Hammarskjöld Library and the Library of the UN Office at Geneva which I had to ask once for my studies. It is also quite possible that I can locate the reports here in the TRNc from the national archive or the MFAffairs. Is this what you want and if so what will you do to make it worth my while?

But all this aside what is of great amazement to me is that you have sunk so deep in your ocean of ego that instead of owning up to the crimes your people have committed you simply choose to deny U.N. reports claiming "faulty" English (which by the way the English is exactly as it is written in the original report). If people are prevented to go to their homes, if villages are attacked and people are murdered, how does simply stating this makes any document, let alone a one by the U.N., "partial". But I know the answer to this very well and so does anyone else who is familiar with your motives: it is because the document states your crimes and that is a reason good enough to deny it or stamp it as partial.

As per usual I'll swiftly put you out of your misery Murataga so you won't have to suffer for too long. This is the only piece by a REAL Secretary-General you will ever need to read to understand what your people were up to during those turbulent years.

The Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1965 described the policy of the Turkish Cypriot leaders in this way:

"The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots" (S/6426).

Taken from:

http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/a99f ... endocument

Wasted!

[aapapa]

MRFROMNG - Well done Murataga and Erolz for what? Wasting there time typing a load of bollocks. Who are they trying to kid? (apart from you of course).

What do you mean 'for what?' This is a well known tactic. Write a lot of rubbish in what appears to be an intelligent way, making sure you don't say very much, and some people will be fooled into thinking that 'hey! this is a clever person. He must know what he's talking about. He must be right'
See how it works?

[aapapa]

MRFROMNG - Well done Murataga and Erolz for what? Wasting there time typing a load of bollocks. Who are they trying to kid? (apart from you of course).

Well snake, below is what I congratulated Murataga for. Every single word of his post is spot on. He very articulately explains to us all the GC kind of democracy. This would not be approved by the likes of you but trust me to the unbiased individual it will explain everything they need to know.

Once again I say well done Murataga.

Funny how you don't congratulate him about the bogus "UN documents" he constantly unashamedly presents!

Didn`t take your previous post on this seriously as I couldn`t imagine that you would go as far as denying them - apparently I was wrong.

I wrote down the quotes from the original documents at the main library in Ankara while attending college. The reports vary from 20-50 pages each. In addition to the main library in Ankara these documents are available in UN Dag Hammarskjöld Library and the Library of the UN Office at Geneva which I had to ask once for my studies. It is also quite possible that I can locate the reports here in the TRNc from the national archive or the MFAffairs. Is this what you want and if so what will you do to make it worth my while?

But all this aside what is of great amazement to me is that you have sunk so deep in your ocean of ego that instead of owning up to the crimes your people have committed you simply choose to deny U.N. reports claiming "faulty" English (which by the way the English is exactly as it is written in the original report). If people are prevented to go to their homes, if villages are attacked and people are murdered, how does simply stating this makes any document, let alone a one by the U.N., "partial". But I know the answer to this very well and so does anyone else who is familiar with your motives: it is because the document states your crimes and that is a reason good enough to deny it or stamp it as partial.

As per usual I'll swiftly put you out of your misery Murataga so you won't have to suffer for too long. This is the only piece by a REAL Secretary-General you will ever need to read to understand what your people were up to during those turbulent years.

The Secretary-General of the United Nations in 1965 described the policy of the Turkish Cypriot leaders in this way:

"The Turkish Cypriot leaders have adhered to a rigid stand against any measures which might involve having members of the two communities live and work together, or which might place Turkish Cypriots in situations where they would have to acknowledge the authority of Government agents. Indeed, since the Turkish Cypriot leadership is committed to physical and geographical separation of the communities as a political goal, it is not likely to encourage activities by Turkish Cypriots which may be interpreted as demonstrating the merits of an alternative policy. The result has been a seemingly deliberate policy of self-segregation by the Turkish Cypriots" (S/6426).

Taken from:

http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/0/a99f ... endocument

Wasted!

"In his report (S/6253-A/6017) the Mediator, Dr. Galo Plaza, criticized the 1960 legal framework and proposed necessary amendments which were again immediately rejected by Turkey, a fact which resulted in serious deterioration of the situation with constant threats by Turkey against the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Cyprus which necessitated a series of United Nations resolutions calling, inter alia, for respect of the sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of Cyprus."

This is also taken from the same reference you quoted. I only mention it because it's time that the moaning Marys, or in this case Muratagas stopped acting as the innocent victims of all situations, accept they are as much to blame for the past, accept that they have also been duped and that they, as ourselves, have been nothing more than pawns in a massive international game of intrigue and politic.

[erolz]

The Cypriots that wanted enosis are the same Cypriots that existed when the Turks first came to Cyprus, and the same ones that have been in Cyprus for 1000s of years before that.

THey are descended from them yes but the point is by 1960 they were NOT the ONLY Cypriots.

You can disagree with the wish of the majority and you can believe you are right. But in democracies you have to respect the will of the majority (as long as it is not against you human/minority rights) and you can not act against it simply because you believe you are right.

No in democracies not in ALL cases do you have to resoect the will of the majority. In democracies like the EU the RoC can and does resist the will of the majority. Even within states it is more common for the largest single minority to gain executive power, not a majority.
When you sought enosis as Greeks living in Cyprus , as an expression of YOUR self determination, you seperated us from you as Cypriots who were NOT greek and gave us equal rights to self determination. So your 'majority' did not have the right to implement enosis with NO REGARD for our rights to self determination as a people in CYprus that by your defintion were 'not you'. I do not claim we I or we can act as a minority simple because we beleive we are right. I am NOT saying that at all. I am saying when you CHOSE to define yourself as Greeks living in Cyprus and purse objectives for Cyprus as such you MADE us a SEPERATE people in CYprus that were 'NOT GREEK' and as such we have a seperate right to self determination. THAT is what gives us a right to resist the IMPOSITION of enosis on us against our will, because enosis itself made us two seperate peoples not one. If you had only persued independance of Cyprus you would NOT have seperated the TC community as a sperate people from you as Cypriots. Even if only 30 % of TC had supported indpendance the TC community would NOT have had a seperate right to self determination, just partipation in the will of a Cypriot people pursuing a Cypriot agenda. You just can not claim that enosis was an expression of the will of a unifed single Cypriot people persuing Cypriot agendas - because it was not. It was the will of a single ethnic group in CYprus pursuing agendas that sought the destruction of Cyprus as a state and a nation and a people. THAT is what gave us a SEPERATE right to self determination as a people in Cyprus that was NOT GREEK. You can make out that I am saying that anytime GC and TC as CYPRIOTS decided something then TC community must have an equal say but actually this is NOT what I am saying AT ALL. I am saying we ONLY get the right to speak as a SEPERATE people when the thing being sought itself SEPERATES US as a people.

If that was the case then everybody could give some excuse to act against the democratic wishes of the population as a whole, and that is definitely not democracy.

You are tiliting at staw men. I am just not saying the above at all. If as Cyptiots we pursue NORMAL objectives as CYPRIOTS - IE ones that do not seek the DESTRUCTION of Cyprus as a nation or state or people and support such totaly because of the ethnic group you are in and think you are Greek above Cypriot, we can use NORMAL means to agree. However when ONE groups persues totaly ABNORMAL objectives as CYPRIOTS - the destruction of the state, nation and people of CYprus, then such 'normal' means are NOT SUFFICENT.

However in democracies you have to respect the democratic choices of the people and if you don't then the result is not democracy regardless of the excuses that you give.

You keep taking about democracies generically but you mean at best democracies within a nation state. Murgata has ALREADY shown you that a PREREQUIST of the kind of democracy you talk abour is a COMMONALITY of interest amongst the people. When you pursued enosis you destroyed that commonality and all prospect of it based on ethnic group and destroyed the chance of a common single CYpriot people choosing democraticaly common CYPRIOT objectives. THese are not excuses these are realites. What is a pathetic attempt for an 'excuse' is the argument that wanting to destroy Cyprus as a nation, state and people was an expression fo a common single Cypriot people when in fact and by definition it was an expression of the will of people who saw themselves as GREEKS living in CYprus and did not beleive at the most fundamental level in the concept of a single unifed and sovreigh Cypriot people. However trying to maintain such a pathetic excuse is the ONLY way you can justify the attempted imposition of enosis on TC against their will and valid inaleinable RIGHTS as a seperate Cypiot people in CYprus that were NOT GREEK.

Yes, I know you will not be convinced. You can keep your own theories that exist nowhere, while I will continue to accept what democracy is as it is accepted by all democratic countries of the world.

You assert that democracy (within a state) MEANS one indivdual one vote and anything else is no democratic. Yet the REALITY is that within EVERY states there are many examples where power is not exerised solely by or throught one person one vote. Yet you claim this is a 'fundamental' of democracy despite all evidence to the contrary.
I on the other hand assert that the true fundamentals of democracy - EVERYWHERE, within states and without from local clubs to supra national insitutions, is the idea of people having and effective voice in the decisions that affect thier lives.

So we have you 'defintion' that is not fundamental because it applies according to you only in the specific circumstance of 'within a state' AND there are countless 'exceptions' to this fundamental definition of democracy everywhere. Or mine that apples to all examples of democracy universaly. I think it is clear whihc is really a true fundamental of demcracy as it is clear WHY you seek to present your weak version.

I don't care what desires anybody can have. They are free to have whatever desires they want. I would also like to have 100 million pounds, does this mean that unless you came and give me 110 million to make it even better for me, I will have the option to go and rob people from their money?

Ypu are talking nonsesne Piratis. Is this because you have run out of atmepts to talk sense ?

No. I will not do that first because I am an ethical person, ...

Lol an ethical person that believes 'Turks' only know how to steal from others.

The same should apply for the crime called partition, and not as you say to more or less allow it as an option to the TCs in case they decide it is better for themselves. So partition should become practically impossible to achieve and those that attempt it should face heavy penalties.

NO No NO Piratis I said EXACLTY the opposite and CLEARLY said it. I said EXPLICITLY that the TC community having the fundamental RIGHT to oppose enosis in Cyprus as a people in CYprus that is not greek does NOT bestow a right to impose division in Cyprus. CLearly you can not attack what I have said so you resort to attacking what I have NOT said.

The world is not just Piratis. In a just world a government that ignored its own legal consitituion and consitutional court rulings should have faced heavy penalties. In a just world a government that set up and ran illegal ethnic based gangs used to kill and terrorise innocent citizens should have faced sever penalties. In a just world a goivernment that made secret plans to illegal steal others consitutional rights with illegality deception and force should have faced heavy penalites. However in the REAL world such a government actually did not only not face severe penalties they were REWARDED with 'iunternational recognistion' pursely because it was politicaly expedient to powerful nations to do so at the time. So with imposed partition. In a just world it would have resulted in server penalties but in such a world it would not have occured in the first place or been necessary. We live in the real world.

If you think we could remove items from the list, then we could also remove the whole principle as well. Whats the difference?

These is no difference which is EXACTLY why the PRINCIPAL that a GC community acting as a GC community seeking to impose things that benfit a GC community alone and impose them on a TC community that they prejudice must require CONSENT from the TC community. Without it and under your 'version' of democracy the TC community as a community are political 'slaves' to a GC communal will, shoulf they wish to act not as CYpriots but just as GC within Cyprus.

The list will exactly make sure that all issues on it are indeed communal, since this list will be agreed in advance. If this agreement does not exist then who will decide what is "communal issue", foreigners?

No one has to decide Piratis. If an issue is the will of one community alone it is by defination communal. This is not a matter of opinion. There are many ways to quatify this. If suppor is predominatly split by ethnic group it is a communal issue. If the 'proposal' affects one community significantly differently from the other it is a communal issue - and this si tha same as the first point , for it is only in such circumstances that support or not would be split along predominatnly communal lines. To me it is like you arguing 'ah but who will decide what is a fish'. In 99.9% of the cases it is obvious what a fish is or is not.

However if you 'fear' abuse (that we will claim a cat is a fish) then YES let us have an independent body to rule on such cases. Let use the ECHR if you like ? I do not care about such arbitration because I do not WANT to abuse the system , I just want the valid protections it offers. I do not give a TOSS about the 'loss of CYpriot sovreignty' this may be presented as by some, if it is ameans by whihc we can put the past behiond us and move onto a better future, then sod the miniscule and irrelvant loss of absolute Cypriot sovreignty this may respresent.

[Kikapu]

I can't believe Erolz and Piratis have not been able to come to terms as to what the definition of a DEMOCRACY is.

It really is not that hard. The trick is not to change the definitions of what DEMOCRACY is.....Erolz.

The essence of democracy is not complicated. The essensce of democracy is that people have an effective say in the decision that rules their lives. Piratis wants a form of democracy that will give my community, as a non Greek community, in it's own homeland no effective say in the most fundamental decision that affect our lives as community, like if Cyprus will exist as a state at all, what my nationality will be in my own homeland and the like. This is not democracy to me at all.

As for Enosis, enough already. It has been dead and buried long time ago. Talk about "Beating a Dead Horse to DEATH".... Erolz.

This is not about enosis , it is about if the GC community pursuing greek objectives has a right to impose such a purely greek future on my non greek community in our shared homeland with no regard for my non greek communites wishes, or not. my non greek community in cyprus

How about if you two talk about having a settlement and all living as Cypriots on the island of Cyprus...Piratis & Erolz.

That is not easy when Piratis' position is essentially agree with being no more than a political minority as community, despite the fact that as a community his community historicaly wanted to destory Cyprus as a state a nation and a people , force a nationality on me that was not wanted all with out my community having any effective voice in such fundamental deicsions - or wait for him to come and kill me when he gets tha chance. Nor is it easy to do what you suggest when his view of me and my cypriot but not greek community is one that

as by yourselves you are totally useless and incapable to even survive. The only thing you are good in is stealing what others created. Typical Turks.

A view he has expressed many times very clearly.

Erolz,

First of all, let me apologize to you by me throwing questions (accusations) your way last night, and not be there to respond to your answers.....I had to hit the sack last night.!!!

I noticed you and Piratis have not stopped your 2-way disagreements on Democracy and Enosis. In all honesty, I just did a quick browse..could not be bothered to read all in detail, because it is probably the 5 version in the last few days.

Erolz, you can either believe in a Democracy that is being practiced in the Western World or the Democracy that is practiced in the Banana Republic or South Asia. Since we live in Europe, I would have thought you would be a strong advocate for Western Democracy that seems to be more TRUE than other kinds of Democracies, that are only in NAME. Now I know that you know what a TRUE Democracy is, so I'm not going to waste my time to explain it to you. You problem is, True Democracy does not give any minority group 50% of Power to be equal with the Majority, and since we the TC's are in the Minority, all of a sudden, you do not want a True Democracy. Now, I understand your feelings perfectly given our past history in Cyprus with the Majority, the GC's, but if you look back for a second, the reasons why we had all the problems with the 1960 Constitution was not because we had a TRUE Democracy, but it's because we did not have a TRUE Democracy. We had a Constitution that was:

a) Undemocratic

b) Racist

c) Violated Human Rights

d) Discriminatory

e) and more, I'm sure.

Any one of the above would have been enough to derail the 1960 Constitution, and it did, which brought us to where we are today, and what really amazes me the most, this is what you want to go back to again, somehow thinking it will work the second time around. I'm sorry, but I'm missing something here. Is this a ploy to get the next agreements derailed again because it will, because it is not a TRUE Democracy.

Let me ask you a very simple question. If you had your own country on Mars, and you did not want to be a Dictator or a King, would you install a Democracy Piratis's way, or your way. Would you chose True Democracy we have come to know in the West, or would you choose a Banana Republic kind of Democracy.?

Back on Earth again.

The fact that we have two main ethnic groups on the island of Cyprus, should not mean, we have to have a system, where each ethnic group can decide how to control their destiny. It can't be done. When the Partitionist asks for Safeguards, they are not asking for protection for all, equal rights for all, equal vote for all, equal opportunity for all, equal in everything else for all. No, what they mean is, we want to be able to say NO with a VETO to any proposal that comes through the Parliament, if it's something the minority does not want. Well, in a TRUE Democracy, this is not how things get done. We all know this, because most of us have lived in other countries as Minorities, and we never complained, and even if we did complain, we would have been told, "tough shit Charlie", but at the same time, non of us lost our individual rights as Humans or Citizens of that country. We need to have Trust in a TRUE Democracy. If you cannot trust TRUE Democracy, how on earth can you put trust into a Banana Republic type of Democracy.

OK, enough said on Democracy and if you don't mind, I really do not want to respond to the Enosis issue, because for me, it is a non issue.

As far as Piratis saying bad things toward Turks and TC's when he gets really pissed is
"and you can rot in that shit hole "TRNC" for all I care".

I think he does this as a last resort.

[Pyrpolizer]

aapapa,

this reminds me my first year in the Uni, when we all thought we could do the same trick we were doing at high school in history exams. Writing pages and pages of bullshit, thinking we would get a perfect score.

Of course the professor granted the majority of us a huge ZERO.

He then explained, that not only we have to concentrate and be precise to the point, but even if we are absolutely right in our answers, he would still deduct points for each unnecessary additional blah-blah.

I think if he were here, he would grant many ZEROS, albeit some of the points raised in this discussion are actually valid.

[Get Real!]

This is also taken from the same reference you quoted. I only mention it because it's time that the moaning Marys, or in this case Muratagas stopped acting as the innocent victims of all situations...

We wouldn't want Murataga to suffer from an IQ overload so we give him his medicine in very small doses.