Cyprus-Forum.com

[erolz]

Erolz, you are just distorting the meaning of democracy to fit your needs. The fact is that you do not accept the basic principle of democracy: one person one vote, and you want to divide the citizens of this country based on their ethnic background, something that happens nowhere else.

No Piratis it is you that distorts the MEANING of democracy and replaces it with a single MEANS , because that happens to allow GC following purely Greek desires to destroy Cyprus as a nationa a state and a people with no regard for the TC community.
I can not be divided from you as a citizen of this country by my actions when you insist it is your right to destory this country as a country in your pursuit of goals that specifically exclude ma and my community. You have ALREADY divided us. By chossing to place Greek nationality and statehood and ownership of Cyprus ABOVE Cyprus itself as a country and a nation and a people.

Union with Greece was our right, and if you want to talk about that subject then lets start a different thread to discuss it again.

It was your right as GC or Greeks. It was not your right as sole representatives of a unitary Cypriot people , that you wanted to destroy as a concept in the name of a sole Cypriot people. It was your right as GC to want it but not your right to seek it by supressing and ignoring our RIGHTS to not want it, as a seperate people - a seperation CREATED by your chosing to want enosis above and beyond wanting a Cypriot state nation and people.

Here I didn't ask you to accept union with Greece. What I asked you is to accept democracy in an independent Cyprus and to show some respect to the human rights of Cypriots.

Whihc is what I want to do but it is next to impossible to respect your huma rights as an indivdual whilst you continue toi try and deny that my community has any rights as a 'not greek' Cypriot people

Still, you give me your usual lame excuses dug from the past to excuse yet more illegalities against us,

This is not about the past, it is about the present.

forgetting that in the past you have most of the blame.

If you say 'I' am the ottoman conquerors and rulers of Cyprus from hundreds of years ago, then ok. However I am not the ottoman conqueror of Cyprus, I am a community of Cypriots that share Cyprus with you as a mutual homeland. Of course your need is to identify my COMMUNITY as the ottoman conquerors. However I blame your community for what it does as a comunity and I think it is reasonable to expect the same.

It is really funny when you are trying to blame Cypriots for wanting to exercise their right for union with Greece, when in fact you kept Cyprus as part of the Ottoman empire against the will of the majority of the people for 3+ centuries.

I do not blame you for wanting to execrise your right as Greeks or Greeks Cypriots (and thus not 'me') for enosis and the destruction of Cyprus as nation, state and people when the creation of such was more than possible in a global context. I blame you for trying to exert that right at the expense of my communites rights.

Your minority has the same rights that Turks in Bulgaria, Greeks in Turkey and Blacks in the USA have. I never denied you your rights, what I deny to you is to steal our land and violate our rights.

No my community has the same inalienable rights as a peoples as you do. We could have execrised that right jointly as a unifed Cypriot people pursuing a unifed Cypriot future that all Cypriots could subscribe to, but your desires required that you exlude my community from a unifed Cypriot people, by wanting to destroy Cyprus as a people and a nation and a state in the persuit of your Greek desire for Cyprus.

Maybe you should tell me how Kerynia, Morfou or Famagusta fall under your "self-determination"? I tell you what, take the villages where you are the legal majority, and do whatever you want within them. Thats self determination to the max. Determining what happens in OUR land could not possibly be part of your "self determination" even if you had one.

Control of these areas is not a part of our right to self determination. The status today is a CONSEQUENCE of your attempts to deny our rights. The status of these places under the current status quo is NOT justifed by your denial of our rights as a community but they ARE a result of such.

About my comment regarding war, of course we reserve all rights to fight against the foreign invader to take back what rightfully belongs to us. If it is OK for you to use force to keep what is not yours, then it is 1000 times OK for us to use force to take back what is ours.

What you said Piratis was that you saw bi-communal meetings and efforts as harmful, because meeting me and other TC would make it harder for you to kill them in the future and that this was a bad thing.

About my right to anonymity it is given to me by this forum and this is why I participate here. Have a look at the "about us" page. I do not hide, your troops could see me right in front of them for 13 out of the 26 months of my military service, and I still serve as a reserve on the cease fire line.

Your ability to maintain annoimity here is provided by the current rules of this forum. It is not a right. The person that runs this forum could decide if they wanted than annoymous posting was not allowed and you would have no grounds to stop them as an anonymous member. That is why annonimity is NOT a right.You do hide behind annonimity when posting here. Many chose to not hide in such a way and they earn due respect for making that choice. You do not.

You. Did I get anything wrong?

Hmm let's see shall we ?

If I was a school drop out

I did leave school at 16 with seven O levels at pass grade a-c

looser

What can I say ? I may be a looser to you but I am a happy and content stable person as far as I am concerned and really very indiffernet to if you or others think I am a looser or not.

without work

It is true that I choose not to do regular paid work for a wage at this stage in my life and I am fortunate enoough to be able to survive without having to do so. This was not always the case. When I left school at 16 I clearly beleived that 'earning alot' was important and would make me happy. By the age of 20 I was earning an obsence amount and driving around in a flash company car but by then I had also realised how for me this kind of pursuit of wealth was in fact an empty existance and I took a differnet route which has led me to where I am now.

family

I have family , I did not drop from the air or rise up out of the ground. It is true that I have chsoen not to have children. I thought at 16 that having to have ones own children when there were already so many unwanted children in the world unloved and uncared for , was an essentialy selfish and ego driven pursuit and I can not say my views have changed much since then.

then maybe I would fill the internet with my name and pretend to be important

It is true that if one does a google on my full name (erol ziya) many hits relating to me will be obtained. However the vast majority of these hits that quote my name and quote myself were NOT written or put there by me, but by others over whom I had no control. I make no pretence to importance. In the words of the song I am who I am and what I am needs no excuses. Nor do I have any need or desire to say things whilst hiding who I am like some do.

[Kikapu]

I can't believe Erolz and Piratis have not been able to come to terms as to what the definition of a DEMOCRACY is.

It really is not that hard. The trick is not to change the definitions of what DEMOCRACY is.....Erolz.

As for Enosis, enough already. It has been dead and buried long time ago. Talk about "Beating a Dead Horse to DEATH".... Erolz.

How about if you two talk about having a settlement and all living as Cypriots on the island of Cyprus...Piratis & Erolz.

[erolz]

I can't believe Erolz and Piratis have not been able to come to terms as to what the definition of a DEMOCRACY is.

It really is not that hard. The trick is not to change the definitions of what DEMOCRACY is.....Erolz.

The essence of democracy is not complicated. The essensce of democracy is that people have an effective say in the decision that rules their lives. Piratis wants a form of democracy that will give my community, as a non Greek community, in it's own homeland no effective say in the most fundamental decision that affect our lives as community, like if Cyprus will exist as a state at all, what my nationality will be in my own homeland and the like. This is not democracy to me at all.

As for Enosis, enough already. It has been dead and buried long time ago. Talk about "Beating a Dead Horse to DEATH".... Erolz.

This is not about enosis , it is about if the GC community pursuing greek objectives has a right to impose such a purely greek future on my non greek community in our shared homeland with no regard for my non greek communites wishes, or not. my non greek community in cyprus

How about if you two talk about having a settlement and all living as Cypriots on the island of Cyprus...Piratis & Erolz.

That is not easy when Piratis' position is essentially agree with being no more than a political minority as community, despite the fact that as a community his community historicaly wanted to destory Cyprus as a state a nation and a people , force a nationality on me that was not wanted all with out my community having any effective voice in such fundamental deicsions - or wait for him to come and kill me when he gets tha chance. Nor is it easy to do what you suggest when his view of me and my cypriot but not greek community is one that

as by yourselves you are totally useless and incapable to even survive. The only thing you are good in is stealing what others created. Typical Turks.

A view he has expressed many times very clearly.

[Piratis]

Erolz, you can rant all day and all night if you wish but you can not change the meaning of democracy. In democracy there is equality among citizens, regardless of their race, gender, ethnic background or anything else. "Equality of communities", in the sense of splitting power 50%-50% among ethnic groups, is NOT what democracy is, it is not what democracy should be, and it is not even how democracy is applied in any country in the whole world.

To protect and give an effective voice to minority groups there are minority rights, affirmative action and similar measures. I would have no problem if we adopt such things as they exist in all other multi-ethnic countries - and even more, so those TCs that truly want unification, but have some concerns due to the past, can feel comfortable. I have even talked about one TC president every 5, thats affirmative action gone to the max and beyond, never seen before anywhere, and then you keep saying that I don't want TCs to have an "effective voice". Ridiculous.
Those that want partition like you, will be satisfied with nothing less than that, and the only relationship they will accept between GCs and TCs is the one that Spanish and Polish have within the EU - basically two separated groups with their own territories and borders, and just some association between them. You partitionists will never accept that TCs and GCs can be equal citizens in a united country without racist divisions along ethnic lines.


You keep referring to enosis. Who asked you to accept enosis???

It is a fact that enosis has been our (Cypriots) right as part of our self determination right. I have shown you the UN resolution about decolonization stating in a crystal clear way that "integration into an independent State" is one of the legitimate options for the territory being de-colonized. Your argument that because there was a Turkish minority in Cyprus that would invalidate the democratic rights of Cypriots as a whole does not hold water. If it was like that, then the populations the British, French, Ottomans, Spanish etc colonialists spread around the world would have veto rights forever over those they conquered. Do you think the white people in South Africa are "separate peoples" and therefore can stop the people of that territory to take democratic decisions for their own country? Are you an apartheid supporter Erolz (oh yes you are!)

Yes, I perfectly understand why TCs didn't want enosis, and this is one of the reasons I support a true independence and not enosis. However it seems you partitionists will never stop supporting the crime of partition. You have been the same since before the 50s, 60s, 70s 80s and until today. When you talk about the problems in the 60s you totally ignore that part of the blame lays with you and your partition dream, and you choose to blame it all on us, trying to find some lame excuse for continuing the crimes and illegalities over the last 3+ decades.

So what is going to be? Are you going to allow Cyprus to finally be a united democratic country without racist or other discriminations, where everybody will have equal rights and equal responsibilities? Or, if you insist that you are a "separate people" with your own "self-determination", and in that case hey whatever, take those villages that you are the legal majority and do whatever you want within them, but give us back OUR towns and villages.

Or, let me guess, you will reject both options, since what you really want is to gain on our loss by brute force, as you have done during the 99% of the time since you set your foot in Cyprus. Yes, I stand by what I said earlier about Turks being good in just stealing what others created, and unfortunately you prove this every day. I hope one day you will come out of the middle ages and show some respect to what belongs to others, and then maybe you will manage to achieve something as well.

oh, and I will not say anything more about you personally. You just proved what I said about you by talking about yourself during half of your post.

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

Same old Erolz - waffling and typing so much that people to surrender to his arguments.

Erolz, your version of democracy does not exist and is just a load of rubbish to try and say that if the majority of Cypriots fairly voted for Enosis in a referendum, it would not be democratic.

What if supporters of the Conservative Party or British National Party (run by a Turkish Cypriot ) also turned around and said that its not fair because people who follow Labour are not giving them an effective say in decisons which rule their lives in Britain.

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

I forgot about this gay post...let me answer it

I have couple of serious question for everyone concerned:

Yeah right lol

1. What do "indigenous" Greek Cypriots look like in terms of physical looks?

Thats a bit of a silly question but if your trying to insinuate that because Cyprus has been ruled by different empires and that Greek Cypriot blood may not be pure of the same blood as the Greek Mycaenean / Achaen / Ionian settlers - then tell me how many people around the world CAN say they have 'pure blood'. Besides, being Greek is as much or more about having a Hellenic culture than bloodline.

2. Were travellers and black people introduced to the island by the Ottomans or not?

I dont know about travellers but i know Sudanese slaves of the Turkish Ottoman Empire were imported to Cyprus.

3. You claim "Greece did not invade Turkey - Greece invaded the Ottoman Empire, in an ill led attempt to reclaim the land that the Ottoman Empire stole from Asia Minor's Greek inhabitants." Am I right in thinking you are now saying Turkish mainland should also belong to Greece? If so, perhaps you can define what the real boundaries of this "indigenous Greek population" should be! Very Happy

No moron - what I am saying is when the Greeks stepped back onto the shores of Asia Minor, it was under control of the Ottoman Empire. There was no Turkey then - it didnt exist. What is now the Turkish mainland was previously inhabited and ruled by different peoples, often indigenous those lands, until the Seljuk Turks invaded. Whether you like it or not, Greeks peacefully settled and lived on the western coast of Asia Minor and was a part of the ancient Greek World way way WAY before, thousands of years infact, the Seljuk Turks came and invaded. No i dont think that the Turkish mainland should belong to Greece - but i'll admit to being secretly satisfied if the Kurds and other peoples reclaimed the land of their ancestors back.



[/quote]
Sorry for intruding, I just gazed through the door for some entertainment before going off again. THANKS SNAKE![/quote]

Thats alright fat bloke.

[Get Real!]

I'm pretty sure that Erol knows very well what modern democracy is all about; after all he did live in London for a considerable period of time did he not?

However, when it comes to democracy in Cyprus Erol likes to twist and complicate the definition of the word in the hope that the TC community will be in a better position to milk the RoC of as much power as possible at the majority's expense.

Such an arrangement of course would be undemocratic and thus impossible and/or unacceptable to implement in this day and age but Erol doesn't seem to realize this, or doesn't care enough, and seemingly still has dreams of some biased 20th century arrangement doomed to failure.

Erol's archaic dream of a constitution revolves around POLITICAL COMMUNITIES not unlike the 1960's agreements but with even more bias in favor of the TC community!

A true democracy however does not allow POLITICAL COMMUNITIES to exist but only has room for CULTURAL COMMUNITIES which unfortunately does not serve Erol’s cause of the TC community attaining more power than real democracy will allow.

There is not a political plan from the past, present, or future that can possibly provide a fairer constitution for Cypriot people than democracy itself so it’s in every Cypriot’s interest that they insist on TRUE DEMOCRACY and nothing less.

[Murataga]

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting that vote"
-Benjamin Franklin

Of course democracy is one vote for one person. No one is challenging this. However, this definition is incomplete. In the famously quoted words of Abraham Lincoln: democracy is the government of the people, by the people, and for the people. The key word here is “people” describing a group with similar interest and objective for their well-being. Majority rule is democracy given that a group has similar objectives and interests for their overall positive existence. You can not be provided a majority say in my fate if you are a different people who has a criminal history of trying to annihilate me, but even more importantly a different people who clearly and explicitly carry within an agenda to pacify or harm me. Democracy is crucial but without liberty it is nothing but a fancy word susceptible to perversion. Without our liberty and security, a simple "majority rule" where the more populated community’s interest lies in destroying the other can not be accepted because that is not democracy, that is tyranny.

[MR-from-NG]

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting that vote"
-Benjamin Franklin

Of course democracy is one vote for one person. No one is challenging this. However, this definition is incomplete. In the famously quoted words of Abraham Lincoln: democracy is the government of the people, by the people, and for the people. The key word here is “people” describing a group with similar interest and objective for their well-being. Majority rule is democracy given that a group has similar objectives and interests for their overall positive existence. You can not be provided a majority say in my fate if you are a different people who has a criminal history of trying to annihilate me, but even more importantly a different people who clearly and explicitly carry within an agenda to pacify or harm me. Democracy is crucial but without liberty it is nothing but a fancy word susceptible to perversion. Without our liberty and security, a simple "majority rule" where the more populated community’s interest lies in destroying the other can not be accepted because that is not democracy, that is tyranny.

These people need a lesson and Murataga is giving them exactly that. Well done Murataga, well done Erolz.

You listening Kikapu? Listen and listen good, you might learn something about the true intentions of your Greek brothers.

[erolz]

It really is very simple. When in cyprus you have 90%+ of GC supporting something and 90%+ of TC resiting it, you have to ask yourself why. The only reason why you would get such a 'result' is when the issue is communal not personal. That is when the thing being supported affects one communal group differently and means something different to each commual group differently. If the thing being sought did not affect one communal group differently to the other you simply would not get such a 'result'. If you want a fair democratic Cyprus, that accepts the our joint failures of the past to build a unifed nation, then you would accept on issue like these and in circumstances like these and ONLY ones like these then actualy true democracy would involve the community as the unit of democracy. If the GC community were to never again try and impose something purely as a community on all cypriots that affected the other community negatively there will never be any need for this 'equality' of the communites to exercised. I want no rights for my community in a united Cyprus other than the right to veto (not impose anything - just stop impostion without consent) those decision that are COMMUNAL and the will of JUST the GC community. Given the history of Cyprus AND the way Piratis and his ilk TODAY argue that such an ability of the GC community alone pursing a purely GC communal agenda that affects TC differntly and means something different to them must have the RIGHT to impose such on the TC community with them having no effective say as a community, I do not think this is too much to ask or is it incompatible with the spirit and intent of democracy.

Such a form of democracy may well be unique or atypical but that does not make it NOT democracy or not fair or not necessary. Cyprus is unique or aytipcal, geogrpahicaly and historicaly and ethnically.

To protect and give an effective voice to minority groups there are minority rights, affirmative action and similar measures. I would have no problem if we adopt such things as they exist in all other multi-ethnic countries - and even more, so those TCs that truly want unification, but have some concerns due to the past, can feel comfortable. I have even talked about one TC president every 5, thats affirmative action gone to the max and beyond, never seen before anywhere, and then you keep saying that I don't want TCs to have an "effective voice". Ridiculous.

You 'offer' me what I do not want or need. What I want and need is for you to accept that as a GC community if you were to pursue a purely GC or Greek communal agenda in Cyprus, then you need the communal consent of the TC community. If you do not have that TC communal consent for an agenda that is PURELY GC then you have no RIGHT as the GC community alone to impose it on my community. The REASON why I need this is because you DID seek to impose a PURELY GC / Greek agenda in CYprus and on my community against our communal rejection of it for OUR futures and you STILL claim you had and have every right to do so.

This is the problem and no amount of 'affirmitive action' addresses this core issue.

Those that want partition like you, will be satisfied with nothing less than that, and the only relationship they will accept between GCs and TCs is the one that Spanish and Polish have within the EU - basically two separated groups with their own territories and borders, and just some association between them. You partitionists will never accept that TCs and GCs can be equal citizens in a united country without racist divisions along ethnic lines.

Piratis you can tell me and the 'world' 1000's times that I want partition, whilst continuing to ignore the issue as I have clearly explained it to you but this does not mean it is true that I want partition.
I want a unifed Cyprus where we are all equal as citizens without racist division along ethnic lines. However you destroyed that when you sought to pursue a ethnic based agenda (enosis) that was not a Cypriot agenda and impose that on my community that was not of the same ethnic group.
When you chose to do that , to be Greek and not Cypriot, to be something sperate from me and not inclusive of me to pursue an ETHNIC agenda that was not a Cypriot one but a Greek one and impose it on me based on your ethnic communites size, you made us 'unequal' and you divided us by race along ethnic lines.

You keep referring to enosis. Who asked you to accept enosis???

That is the problem Piratis no one ask 'me' if I wanted or would accept enosis. You just told me I had and HAVE no choice in such a ETHNIC and COMMUNAL issue.

It is a fact that enosis has been our (Cypriots) right as part of our self determination right. I have shown you the UN resolution about decolonization stating in a crystal clear way that "integration into an independent State" is one of the legitimate options for the territory being de-colonized. Your argument that because there was a Turkish minority in Cyprus that would invalidate the democratic rights of Cypriots as a whole does not hold water. If it was like that, then the populations the British, French, Ottomans, Spanish etc colonialists spread around the world would have veto rights forever over those they conquered. Do you think the white people in South Africa are "separate peoples" and therefore can stop the people of that territory to take democratic decisions for their own country? Are you an apartheid supporter Erolz (oh yes you are!)

Again this is really very simple. You can not pursue something in the name of a single CYPRIOT peoples right to self determination when the thing you pursue is actually the destruction of the Cypriot state and the CYpriot nation and the Cypriot people. You can only pursue such logically in the name of a Greek people that live in Cyprus. When you chose to do that you create by necessity another sperate people from yoursleves that alos live in Cyprus and they have EXACTLY the SAME rights as you do as a people.
Your examples above just so totaly miss the point as does your allegation that I want apartheid. I do not want the right for the TC community to be able to IMPOSE anything. I do not want them to have the right to block / veto anything excpet when you act not as Cypriot indivduals but purely as a community to impose changes that affect my community in a totaly different and prejudical way to yours (which would be the ONLY time we would be divided along ethnic lines as Cypriots).

Yes, I perfectly understand why TCs didn't want enosis, and this is one of the reasons I support a true independence and not enosis.

Now supporting indpendance of Cyprus and not enosis is not some 'gift' you offer me in friendship, whilst insisting that actually if you did (again) change your communal mind on this and sought it , you have a RIGHT to do so without any regard for my communites wishes or need to gain our support or consent for it.
If you seek to pursue an ethnic agenda in Cyprus that is not Cypriot but Greek then my community has the RIGHT to a sperate self determination for itself as a NON GREEK Cypriot people, that ALSO live in Cyprus and consider it their homeland. You can not give me what is my communites right as a gift and your certainly should not expect 'gratitude' when yopu try to give me what is my right as if it was some gift that you give me , but reserve the right to remove should you wish to in the future.

However it seems you partitionists will never stop supporting the crime of partition. You have been the same since before the 50s, 60s, 70s 80s and until today. When you talk about the problems in the 60s you totally ignore that part of the blame lays with you and your partition dream, and you choose to blame it all on us, trying to find some lame excuse for continuing the crimes and illegalities over the last 3+ decades.

I do not support the the division of Cyprus by force of arms. What I am trying to say to you as clearly and honestly as possible is that is we are to reverse the effects of this division and build a new and different and better future for Cyprus and all CYpriots we can only do so if you accept my rights COMMUNAL as well as indivdual and seek to address these issue AS WELL as the issue of forced division. If the best you have to 'offer me' is - you had and have no rights to resist the imposition of a non cypriot purely ethnic greek will on your community in our shared homeland of Cyprus and if you do not accept this we will come and kill you and take back by force what we lost , then you make it next to impossible for me to find a way to build a better future that respects ALL of our rights as Cypriots indivdual and communal.

So what is going to be? Are you going to allow Cyprus to finally be a united democratic country without racist or other discriminations, where everybody will have equal rights and equal responsibilities?

If you agree that you alone as an ethnic group and race within Cyprus, that is not Cypriot, have no RIGHT to impose such a non Cypriot purely ethnic based will on my community without my communites consent then we are 85% of the way to building a better Cyprus.

Or, if you insist that you are a "separate people" with your own "self-determination",

I insist I am a spererate people ONLY when YOU try and impose a etnic based communal will that is not MINE - ie NOT CYPRIOT on me.

and in that case hey whatever, take those villages that you are the legal majority and do whatever you want within them, but give us back OUR towns and villages.

Just nonsense Piratis. I have NEVER made the claim that as a seperate people the TC community has the right to take anything. Nor do I claim that we have the right to impose anything on ither CYpriots that are not part of 'us'. All I have ever said is we have a sperate and equal right to self determination as a Cypriot peoples , when (and only when) you chose to seek a purely ethnic based agenda as a group / people in Cyprus that I am not a part of and that seeks to destroy Cyprus itself as a nation and a people. So we have a right to refuse the impostion of enosis on us. We have and had no right to impose division. That division was imposed on you (and me) by force is directly related to this issue, an until you deal with it as an issue , that division is next to impossible to change.

Or, let me guess, you will reject both options, since what you really want is to gain on our loss by brute force, as you have done during the 99% of the time since you set your foot in Cyprus.
Yes, I stand by what I said earlier about Turks being good in just stealing what others created, and unfortunately you prove this every day. I hope one day you will come out of the middle ages and show some respect to what belongs to others, and then maybe you will manage to achieve something as well.

And you talk about racism. I am a theif and I live in the middle ages because I am a Turk. It is hard to imagine a more racist viewpoint than that.

oh, and I will not say anything more about you personally. You just proved what I said about you by talking about yourself during half of your post.

I proved I have nothing to hide as an inidvdual or to be ashamed about. You ASKED me if your description was accurate and I answered you.