Cyprus-Forum.com

[Bananiot]

No, but we have a new breed now. Those that question our signatures and intentions and demand we change our line from bizonal, bicommunal federation to some sort of a nebulous European solution. They are extremely dangerous and it so happens they are all supporters of Papadopoulos and members of the present day government, along with Archbishop Chrysostomos. True, Papadopoulos reiterated his adherence to BBF but you can believe him at your own peril.

[aapapa]

Ourdays of course there is not such a target but ,at least, we will find a way to not loose also our Nationality.

Our Nationality, if not lost, is at least being devalued and it has nothing to do with mistakes of the past but more to do with the mistakes of the present, such as the sell out of our traditional ways to the pursuance of financial gain and the easy life................but that's probably another issue which belongs to another post.

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

That is an improvement (removing the ha, ha part) but again you make some unfounded remarks and then base your conclusions on them. Turkey did not come in because of a small nationalist minority. Turkey invaded to fulfill its objectives after we gave her the green light and I do not just mean the coup which we quite conveniently credit to the junta (we seem to have forgotten the internal colaborators recently) but our whole stance since 1960 when we signed an agreement that made the two communities equal partners in Cyprus.

Did the Treaty of Guarantee also give Turkey the green light to occupy the island and ethnically cleanse the northern part of all Christians and its indigenous population???

In 1960, the two communties WERE NOT equal partners as your put it - the Turkish Cypriot community had considerably more rights over the rest of the Cypriot population, forcefully implemented by the British Empire.

Bananiot, how educated are you in the history of the British Empire?...or maybe the question should just be how educated are you? What the British Empire did in Cyprus when leaving, it did all over the world. Are you that much of a Greek hater that because of political uncertainty at the time, you would want all Greek Cypriots in its northern part ethnically cleansed by a foreign power???

You also fail to mention the very equal and provoking part the Turkish TMT played in the 1960's inter communal clashes. Almost as many Greek Cypriots died as Turkish Cypriots...and if we were going to to use ratio of killing in comparison to community size, then the Turkish Cypriots did a hell of a lot more killing. Although this is just a statistic, its one example to why you should also stop blaming the Greek Cypriot community and wanting them to suffer so much - as the Turkish Cypriots shared the same amount of blame!

In the same way Greece invaded Turkey back in 1919 after Turkey mistreated its Greek minority (that was our excuse). This is how things work in our part of the world. It so happened that Turkey ended up on top in both cases. Tough luck for us but can you imagine the arguments you would be making now had we won the day?

Greece did not invade Turkey - Greece invaded the Ottoman Empire, in an ill led attempt to reclaim the land that the Ottoman Empire stole from Asia Minor's Greek inhabitants. Again, get your history right and know the difference between an empire and a state. What makes me laugh though is you say Greece's attempts to take back land from the Ottoman Empire and save its Greek population is an EXCUSE...but Turkey's ethnic cleansing and occupation of Cyprus is VALID because they claim to wanting to save the Turkish Cypriot community - when any level headed person knows the real aim of the Turkish invasion was for land grab.

Bananiot you are simply a Greek hater. You still havent answered my why you think the very small group of EOKA B followers in Cyprus are more important and matter a lot more than the rest of the Greek Cypriot community. Again, another excuse for you to see Greek Cypriots suffer.

[Bananiot]

Snake, I have no time to talk to you now but you make assumptions that stand on thin soil and then you begin fighting the daemons you create. Really, we cannot get anywhere like this? You also haven't been reading carefully what I write and this constitutes another debacle in our conversation. I really have to go now, catch you later but just before I go I would like to point out to you that some of the greatest people that came out of Greece were pronounced as Greek haters by lesser minds ...

[bigOz]

That is an improvement (removing the ha, ha part) but again you make some unfounded remarks and then base your conclusions on them. Turkey did not come in because of a small nationalist minority. Turkey invaded to fulfill its objectives after we gave her the green light and I do not just mean the coup which we quite conveniently credit to the junta (we seem to have forgotten the internal colaborators recently) but our whole stance since 1960 when we signed an agreement that made the two communities equal partners in Cyprus.

Did the Treaty of Guarantee also give Turkey the green light to occupy the island and ethnically cleanse the northern part of all Christians and its indigenous population???

In 1960, the two communties WERE NOT equal partners as your put it - the Turkish Cypriot community had considerably more rights over the rest of the Cypriot population, forcefully implemented by the British Empire.

Bananiot, how educated are you in the history of the British Empire?...or maybe the question should just be how educated are you? What the British Empire did in Cyprus when leaving, it did all over the world. Are you that much of a Greek hater that because of political uncertainty at the time, you would want all Greek Cypriots in its northern part ethnically cleansed by a foreign power???

You also fail to mention the very equal and provoking part the Turkish TMT played in the 1960's inter communal clashes. Almost as many Greek Cypriots died as Turkish Cypriots...and if we were going to to use ratio of killing in comparison to community size, then the Turkish Cypriots did a hell of a lot more killing. Although this is just a statistic, its one example to why you should also stop blaming the Greek Cypriot community and wanting them to suffer so much - as the Turkish Cypriots shared the same amount of blame!

In the same way Greece invaded Turkey back in 1919 after Turkey mistreated its Greek minority (that was our excuse). This is how things work in our part of the world. It so happened that Turkey ended up on top in both cases. Tough luck for us but can you imagine the arguments you would be making now had we won the day?

Greece did not invade Turkey - Greece invaded the Ottoman Empire, in an ill led attempt to reclaim the land that the Ottoman Empire stole from Asia Minor's Greek inhabitants. Again, get your history right and know the difference between an empire and a state. What makes me laugh though is you say Greece's attempts to take back land from the Ottoman Empire and save its Greek population is an EXCUSE...but Turkey's ethnic cleansing and occupation of Cyprus is VALID because they claim to wanting to save the Turkish Cypriot community - when any level headed person knows the real aim of the Turkish invasion was for land grab.

Bananiot you are simply a Greek hater. You still havent answered my why you think the very small group of EOKA B followers in Cyprus are more important and matter a lot more than the rest of the Greek Cypriot community. Again, another excuse for you to see Greek Cypriots suffer.

I have couple of serious question for everyone concerned:

1. What do "indigenous" Greek Cypriots look like in terms of physical looks?

2. Were travellers and black people introduced to the island by the Ottomans or not?

3. You claim "Greece did not invade Turkey - Greece invaded the Ottoman Empire, in an ill led attempt to reclaim the land that the Ottoman Empire stole from Asia Minor's Greek inhabitants." Am I right in thinking you are now saying Turkish mainland should also belong to Greece? If so, perhaps you can define what the real boundaries of this "indigenous Greek population" should be!

Sorry for intruding, I just gazed through the door for some entertainment before going off again. THANKS SNAKE!

[the_snake_and_the_crane]

Very convenient that you have to go...

I really have to go now, catch you later but just before I go I would like to point out to you that some of the greatest people that came out of Greece were pronounced as Greek haters by lesser minds ...

I really doubt that you come into this category.

[Pyrpolizer]

I strongly agree with Nikitas that both sides viewed the 1960 as merely a cornerstone for their respective objectives. The Greek Cypriot side (ie the government) in order to prepare the ground for enosis and the Turksih Cypriot extremists in order to achieve taksim (partition) at all costs. Makarios moved away from enosis only in 1967, after the Kofinou fiasco. when he realised at last that politics is the art of the feasible and shifted policy from the desirable (ευκταίο) to the feasible (εφικτό). Until then it was all about enosis and the Parliament voted unanimously on this along of course with AKEL which by then followed Makarios closely.

When Makarios made a U turn, during the period of the junta, he upset many people, who by now saw him as an obstacle to enosis. These were violent people who would go to any length to achieve their aims. They were killing Greek Cypriots and surely they would show no merci to any Turkish Cypriots that might have got in thier way. Makarios men possibly showed excess zeal in confronting some of the enosis supporters too. When the coup was staged and 99% of the people that on paper supported Makarios had no clue how to deal with the 1%, Turkey finally invaded. She had the perfect excuse. The invasion could have easily taken place in 1964 or in 1967 but the dreaded foreigners saved our skin then. We did not learn our lessons then and it was just a matter of time then when it would happen. However, certain members in this forum claim that Turkey would have invaded us anyway, thus, we were never in control of our fate, according to this logic. The same people call me a defeatist ...

That was ME and PROUD of it. If you watch carefully what I underlined on top, you already admitted I was right.

Of course we were in no control of our fates with those shitty agreements. If we were to go legally as per constitution the first thing that would happen legally is the SEPARATE Municipalities. Separate this, separate that, veto this veto that, join the separate by peaceful means then a little armed provocations and voila "TAKSIM ON THE PLATE". We tried ignoring the agreements or proposing changes and we had the same result. Why is that surprising you?

Btw if you watch carefully I already said that if the TCs ever decide to return back to 1960 constitution under the RoC, don't expect that everything would be rosy for us, and it would work fine. The 1960 constitution simply works TODAY because the TCs are out. I went further along, to suggest that the return of the TCs in the 1960 constitution is only a good idea, to have have a legal platform, sustain it with tons of good will and sacrifices from both sides for maximum 1-2 years(as i don't think it can last longer), so we work out a final Federal solution from inside. I.e for both sides to have an acceptable legal platform, that would at least help the TCs come out of their isolation, and solve the property issue. The Federal governing system could then be drafted relatively easy.

[Pyrpolizer]

Epsilon,

Can you imagine Cyprus as a nomos of Greece with a Nomarhis appointed by Athens? Do you think Cypriots are willing to accept such a situation?


A very topical point is the impression made by the Cypriot fire brigade contingent that is in Greece right now fighting the forest fire. They arrived well organized, properly equipped, got down to business right away and brought the fire in their sector under control. Journalists here were amazed to see that these guys had proper fire resistant uniforms compared to the short sleeved "t" shirts of the mainland firefighters. The same comparison of organization goes across many sectors of administrative action and if union were ever to happen the problems of the mainland would swamp Cyprus. Do you honestly know many Cypriots who are not aware of this?

There was seldom any debate re the practicalities of Enosis. As long as it was an idea it sounded good. When the details were thought about the picture changed.

ON an ideological basis there was another point- union implies union between two equal partners and the outcome is better for each unifying part and the resultant entity. In our case the union was more like a conquest and the big fish would simply swallow the smaller one. Cyprus would not be allowed to contribute to the improvement of Hellenism as a whole, even in areas like public administration and agricultural cooperatives where it is centuries ahead of Greece. One day I will regale you all with tales of Greek buraucracy!

The "Athens centered Greek state" (not my term, used by Greek journalists to criticise their state) was never very tolerant of active and flourishing centers of Hellenism outside its borders. See how it cared for the Greeks of Egypt, of southern Italy, Pontos, Africa etc. not to mention Asia Minor. If it did not control ithem t was not interested.

So the resistance to Union is something that grew and found expression after the rise of the dictatorship. Some see it as betrayal of Greece, some see it as a step forward for Hellenism. Greece and Hellenism are not always synonymous meanings. If you get my point!

Excellent post Nikitas.

The same practicalities were realized by the Tcs after they BROUGHT Turkey here in 1974, and now they don't know how to unstuck themselves from the shit hole

[Piratis]

Those are some rights given to you under specific agreements. If you demand your 100% of rights based on those agreements you have to give us the 100% of ours. It can not be pick and choose.

You had 100% of your rights but you changed your mind (or never signed in to them with intention to honor them to begin with) and tried to get more - remember? In your conquest to do so you devastated the other community and usurped the RoC.

Beyond those agreements the Turks in Cyprus are no different that say the Turks of Bulgaria who have in fact a longer history there than the TCs in Cyprus.

Aforementioned are the legal aspects of what the status and circumstances of the TCs are in Cyprus - which nullifies your perversions. Beyond that is your Sunday Church teachings about history which you try to sell to others - no thanks.

So be smart and take those agreements since as you admit it gave to you so much more than any other minority on our loss, and stop thinking that there is even the slightest possibility you can take even more on our loss by force.

The only fact that stands to which I`ll admit is the one that those agreements gave you much much more than you deserved and we as the TC community payed dearly for having made that mistake. But rest assured, it will not be repeated ever again.

Those agreements gave you a lot more than what you deserved.
This is very easy to find out if you compare what other minorities have and what the TCs were given by the British in the 1960 agreements.

Anyways, rot in the shit hole you managed to create in the occupied part of our country until it will be liberated and pray to your Allahoulaoupa for some more aid from abroad as by yourselves you are totally useless and incapable to even survive. The only thing you are good in is stealing what others created. Typical Turks.

[paliometoxo]

isent it true that dnektash said to ROC if you cut off electricity to north we will take all of cyprus.
before they put their own... how long will turkey be able to keep putting billions a year to support the north of cyprus.. maybe thats why north want solution because turkey wont be able to carry on supporting north cy forever